Author Topic: Group Riding in MSTA  (Read 23048 times)

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Offline touringman

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2015, 03:26:40 PM »
This is an excellent thread. I was rooming with Norm at FC, and he told about the situation. I understand his feelings and explanation, but Tosh also has a good point when he mentions that it would be nice not to make new members feel unwelcome. This is a subject that needs to be addressed not only in terms of why we do it, but how we can work around the problem to be more welcoming. The EC has made efforts with MAP and the Ambassador programs, but they've only been marginally successful. Unlike Norm and quite a few other members, my schedule doesn't allow me to ride 30to 40k a year, and attend almost every rally that comes along. With that said, I wouldn't mind leading a ride with some newbies one day during one of the rallies. It does help that I usually take extra days when going to the few rallies that I attend, so it isn't like I'm taking a chance of screwing up my only riding day on Saturday. Somehow we have to set up a system which allows us to have more information about the new member's riding style and preferences as pertains to stops, speed, etc. In order to coordinate things a little better, current members should be asked upon renewal to list the upcoming rallies they hope to attend, and if they would volunteer on a specific day during one of those rallies to lead a ride. They might state the pace that he or she intends to maintain. If you volunteer to lead, it should be your prerogative to decide how large your group will be. Communication is part of the problem, because the person or persons in charge of the rally frequently doesn't know who wants to join a group until the day is over, when it's to late to do anything about it.

I love to ride with certain friends as well, and, as it was at FC, it was just assumed we would ride together. We do allow others to join the group pretty freely, but we usually know them. When you usually ride with that certain group, I think it is good to ask them before allowing new folks to join in. If they'd rather not, then you have to be prepared to lead on your own. In the past in all kinds of activities, l've had more good experiences than bad. Learning about new people can sometimes be fun and rewarding. The problem lies with us older members and not the newbie. For the most part, they are anticipating a whole new world, with riding opportunities and other people of similar interests to eat with and chat with. If you joined many years ago, you probably either didn't experience the problem, or have forgotten about it by now. I remember that I did not feel welcomed at first, and, if I hadn't been the pushy SOB that I am, I'd probably have been long gone by now. How about some more suggestions about improving the situation. Syd :)
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Offline normkern

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2015, 03:30:50 PM »

There are 14 pages at last count at http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.0.html#.VienqCtuMvw.  The topic is titled I'm already seeing why sport tourers ride alone
It covers this topic ad nauseum. 
 


I read all 14 pages. Pretty good catalog of group vs solo riding pros & cons. OTOH, this thread is about Group Riding in MSTA, with the goal of researching and promoting ways to make it a better, more accessible experience for our members.

Norm Kern

Offline normkern

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2015, 04:00:16 PM »
The Problem With Social Group Riding

The primary problem with Social Group riding is also it's main attraction. It's an activity that's intended to be as INCLUSIVE as possible. It's an open invitation to mix bike types and drastically different skill levels. It's considered impolite to turn people away, so group size almost always gets out of hand. Waiting for someone to show up for the ride, waiting at every turn for a slow rider, stopping every whipstich for a thousand reasons, playing gas games, etc, drives many of us crazy.

One of the things I love about MSTA is that in general we are on more similar types of bikes, almost everyone wears gear, and has far above average skill level. That homogeneity at least gives us a head start on the Group Riding problem, but there is still much that is needed to make it a seamless experience.

What About Riding Solo?

Many people expressed the preference for riding solo in the lengthy thread above. They say that by riding alone, they can do whatever they want with no conflicts whatsoever. 
That won't work for me because I want people to ride with, but this philosophy gave me an idea: IF I could find someone to ride with who liked to ride the same style & pace, liked to stop as often, had the same interests in things to see, etc, then both of us would pretty much get to do exactly what we wanted to do AND I'd have someone to do it with. That's what Tim Zimmer and I did, and over time, other like-minded people saw what we were doing and joined us. Over a period of years that evolved into what I call "Interest Group Riding."


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Offline normkern

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2015, 04:31:42 PM »
"Interest Group Riding" defined

Interest Group Riding is putting together a small group of riders who want to ride in a very specific manner and format that all the group members share a common preference for. I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and state my personal Interest Group preferences as follows:


Interest Group Riding Goals:

1.
  Start at an agreed time
2.
Ride an interesting route that provides a challenge
3.
  Ride a pace that is spirited yet sustainable
4.
  Maintain adequate spacing- Riders ride in a staggered formation, try to maintain visual contact with next rider, not ride close together.
5.
  Group Convergence 1- Allow flexibility of pace for individual riders. Faster riders near front of group, slower riders in rear.
6. Group Convergence 2- Leader goes quickly in corners, but does not maximize speed on straightaways, providing opportunity for those slower in corners to easily keep up.
7.
  Group Convergence 3- Collecting the group at stop signs, route turns and intersections. In cases where the roadway does not provide room to collect, the group reverts to individual riders waiting until the next rider catches up.
8.
Passing slower traffic- Effort is made to avoid traffic, but there will be times when passing must be done quickly to maintain Group Convergence.
9.
  Stop somewhere in the morning for a brief restroom break
10. Stop somewhere, preferably nice, for approximately an hour for lunch, fuel and social time

11.Stop somewhere in the afternoon for a brief restroom break

12.Arrive back at the host hotel early enough to shower and relax before dinner

Interest Group Avoidances:
1.
Traffic congestion
2.  Police supervision
3.
Frequent stops
4.
  Waiting in lines
5.
  Making other group members wait
6.  Crashes

Participation Rules-
Most of these rules are as much about courtesy as safety.

1.
  Be ready to ride at the agreed upon time.
2.
      No gas games 1- Show up at the start of the ride with a full tank of gas.
3.
      No gas games 2- Top off your tank at each gas stop so extra stops are unnecessary.
4.      Every rider needs to navigate- have a GPS and use it. A GPS is not mandatory, but if you are not using a GPS loaded with the day's route, you need to ride in the middle of the riding group to minimize the chance of getting lost/separated from the group.
5.
      Riders must wear proper riding gear. ATGATT
6.      Riders must ride a modern motorcycle in good mechanical condition, including tires in good condition.
7.
      Group members do NOT unilaterally invite outsiders to ride with the group. Ask the group leader privately and let them decide whether to invite a non-group person.

One more thought about Courtesy- Indiana has a safety slogan: "Hoosier hospitality is no accident!" I used to dismiss it as a typical smart-ass safety slogan like "Click it or ticket" but upon reflection it gave me a positive idea that applies to our riding group- We all have a safety-oriented obligation of courtesy to our fellow riders. Riding responsibly and not crashing is not only good for you, but good for all of us, because even a minor crash by anyone in the group casts a pall that dampens everyone's riding day.

I'm not presenting my rules as something for everyone- they are merely an example of what a set of rules can look like. Anyone who reads them comes away with a pretty clear idea of what our group's interests are. Some will undoubtedly argue that there are too many rules in this example. In reply, I would say that most of the rules are things most of us would do anyway.

Some of the Group Avoidances are the responsibility of the group leader, some are the responsibility of the riders.

Some will think the Participation Rules are picky or petty, but unfortunately they are necessary, based on past group experience when outsiders joined us.

Let the discussion begin...

Norm Kern
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 04:57:04 PM by normkern »

Offline Landon

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2015, 06:23:31 PM »
I like it Norm.

One rule I would add is that if for any reason you need to split from the group you must let another rider in the group know. I've experienced riders that left and we didn't know what happened. I hate when someone does it.

I've ridden with lots of different people in my riding days. Out of all of them I'd say there is only about 3 or 4 that really match my riding style and stopping frequency for a multiple day trip, but for a one day ride my riding style is flexible enough that I can ride with just about any group or rider.
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Offline Patmo

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2015, 08:29:23 PM »
Unfortunately, as many of us have "aged", the need for more frequent restroom breaks has somewhat increased for some.  When leading a ride anymore I usually plan to stop around an hour after a meal.  The use of intercoms and other modes of bike to bike communication has increased as the systems have become better, and more affordable.  They certainly help in many ways, including allowing members to request needed breaks.

I'd also like to make the point that finding riders that not only like to ride the same pace and take the same kind of breaks is important, but so is finding riders that like to ride the same time of day.  For example, I am a very early riser, even today when I don't have to get up early, I still do.  I like to hit the road early and get back early.  Others like to sleep in, start later, and return later.  Some discussion on timing should certainly be a part of any pre-ride planning.
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Offline OldButNotDead

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2015, 07:44:18 AM »

There are 14 pages at last count at http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.0.html#.VienqCtuMvw.  The topic is titled I'm already seeing why sport tourers ride alone
It covers this topic ad nauseum. 
 


I read all 14 pages. Pretty good catalog of group vs solo riding pros & cons. OTOH, this thread is about Group Riding in MSTA, with the goal of researching and promoting ways to make it a better, more accessible experience for our members.

Norm Kern
The reason I put that reference in was because STN and STO both have a much wider cross section of ST riders than MSTA.   I fully understand your purpose. I do not see any real growth in MSTA and the opinions of MSTA core riders isn't going to change that.  When I say core riders that isn't even a valid statement when you look at the number of hits on this site.
Rod
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Offline GlibGuy

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2015, 09:20:47 AM »
You referene to STN and STO . . . .

What are these?
Mick
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Offline normkern

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2015, 09:31:03 AM »
Just to throw my 2 cents worth in the conversation, the Michigan MSTA director has a nice written seminar about this very subject and it was the focus of a group meeting during the off season last year. It's probably worth a read and can be found on the michigan website at www.mstamichigan.com. Go to articles and scroll down to find it.

Finally got a chance to read this article. Lots of great stuff here!

Norm Kern

Offline normkern

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2015, 09:37:57 AM »

The reason I put that reference in was because STN and STO both have a much wider cross section of ST riders than MSTA.   I fully understand your purpose. I do not see any real growth in MSTA and the opinions of MSTA core riders isn't going to change that.  When I say core riders that isn't even a valid statement when you look at the number of hits on this site.
Rod

Rod,

Enjoyed reading that link- thank you for posting it. MSTA needs to think about what it needs to do to grow (that's already being done by some), but it's a hard sell in the age of internet "clubs" that have no dues or obligations.

Some things I see about group riding in the club
1. There are more members who want to ride in a group than there are members who are willing or prepared to lead.
2. Newbies usually want to come to an event and ride with established members.
3. It's no one's job to find ride leaders or be one.
4. It's too hard for newbies to fit in and establish ties, especially at first.

How do we develop additional group leaders?
How do we improve availability of groups for newbies to ride with?

Norm Kern


Offline OldButNotDead

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2015, 01:50:57 PM »
One of things I saw more of in the past than currently is a first night get together.  Don't mean at a bar or restaurant but at the hotel or paddock area.  Maybe a burger and hot dog thing but with some presenters.  The presenters could describe some of the routes, good places to visit, etc AND have sign up sheets for group rides.

My observation of the direction of events is and has been for a long time is pre-ordained  groups of riders launch off at dawn with the rest left to grab some ad hoc group formed at random.  IMO, if you want the group rides to be more successful, that first night gathering needs to be more active in group ride formation.
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Offline touringman

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2015, 02:41:37 PM »
Sounds silly, but what about a free on the MSTA lunch for Members who will lead a ride, along with a "Ride Coach" hat, which they can choose to wear when "on duty". Each coach would normally sign up for one day. Ride coaches could volunteer when registering for an event, or at an event. Coaches would have individual sign up sheets displayed at registration, mostly for newbies, with riding style, break schedule, chosen route (if available), and other pertinent info. If you already have a couple of guys going with you, you can limit the number of additional riders you accept, or set a maximum. :D
Touringman

Offline DirtFlier

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2015, 04:45:42 PM »
[...IMO, if you want the group rides to be more successful, that first night gathering needs to be more active in group ride formation...]

At our events, the rides are typically among many small groups of friends, usually less than 6 riders, who are similar in regards to speed, endurance, and range of their bikes.   Injecting a newbie into this mix is difficult unless he/she has experience with someone in that group and even then, the adjustment could be difficult. 

Many newbies come to an event with a friend who is already a member while only a tiny percentage of newbies come alone.  It would be logical for the onus to be on the existing member to help his/her newbie friend.  The newbie who is alone is a tough nut to crack.

When we had STAR at Lexington in 2005, Moose led a "New Member's Lunch Ride."  More than half of the riders in that massive group were existing members who just wanted someone to lead them to the lunch spot!   Having your own GPS with routes is a wonder thing!     

Offline wardie

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2015, 04:50:34 PM »
I think Touringman and Oldbutnotdead pretty much summed it up with their posts.
Wardie

Offline Kenneth Gill

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Re: Group Riding in MSTA
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2015, 07:01:41 PM »
It sounds like Norm is trying to ask us all to be more engaging with other members of the MSTA beyond our usual riding Buddies.  With the average age of the organization not getting any younger we may become the FORMER MSTA if we don't encourage other riders to enjoy the sport and maybe learn a few things from the Masters.  Events like STAR and other Larger Regional events could be the perfect place to Grow our organization.  Or maybe you would prefer coaching a newbie at the local level.  No one just "wakes up one morning" and is suddenly an expert on anything.  Education and training are required if we are going to improve our riding skills and we have all received coaching from others to be the riders we are today.
Ken Gill