MSTA Forums
Thread Archive => STAR 2021 => Topic started by: normkern on May 05, 2021, 08:09:03 AM
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The STAR 2021 Routes website is online! 15 road and 6 ADV rides to choose from. Check out the EZ Route finder here! http://star21.flybyweek.com/ (http://star21.flybyweek.com/)
Norm Kern
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Very good job Norm. And the others that helped you! Thanks for all the work and effort everyone put in to produce the routes and all the supporting docs. The website is very nice and well laid out. The users guide is very good and should be the first thing everyone should read and use to setup their GPS's.
I am looking forward to Star 2021 and the Canaan Valley Resort.
:trink39: :clap:
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I am not using a GPS, but looking at the routes they look like great routes. But, in the printed version in PDF, it mainly shows names of roads. It would also be very very helpful to have the road numbers.
I am trying to get a feel for the routes, and Bing maps as well as Google maps use the road number. State maps don't use any names, just numbers also.
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Carl
I think you’ll find that a lot of the little roads don’t HAVE numbers, just names. But you can put together some really good routes on your own just by taking a WV state map and staying on state routes. They are pretty much ALL twisty.
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I am not using a GPS, but looking at the routes they look like great routes. But, in the printed version in PDF, it mainly shows names of roads. It would also be very very helpful to have the road numbers.
I am trying to get a feel for the routes, and Bing maps as well as Google maps use the road number. State maps don't use any names, just numbers also.
I have this same issue with the Garmin maps in my Zumo. The turn alerts at the top of the GPS screen give street names when you are approaching a town or city instead of highway numbers.
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Well I’m having an issue I’ve not seen before. I have a Nav 6. I downloaded the zip file of the gpx files. Unzipped them on my PC into a su file I made. I click on one of the routes and the Garmin BaseCamp setup Wizard starts. I click next, I accept and click next then I get an MSI Error. InstallFailure.
What???
Brick
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Well I’m having an issue I’ve not seen before. I have a Nav 6. I downloaded the zip file of the gpx files. Unzipped them on my PC into a su file I made. I click on one of the routes and the Garmin BaseCamp setup Wizard starts. I click next, I accept and click next then I get an MSI Error. InstallFailure.
What???
Brick
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
First question: what heck is an su file? Second, did you read Norm's "Downloading and Using MSTA
STAR21 Routes" instructions?
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Well I’m having an issue I’ve not seen before. I have a Nav 6. I downloaded the zip file of the gpx files. Unzipped them on my PC into a su file I made. I click on one of the routes and the Garmin BaseCamp setup Wizard starts. I click next, I accept and click next then I get an MSI Error. InstallFailure.
What???
Brick
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
First question: what heck is an su file? Second, did you read Norm's "Downloading and Using MSTA
STAR21 Routes" instructions?
Sorry su was supposed to be subfile file. And yes I’ve read it 5 times.
Recently I deleted BaseCamp and went to Garmin and reinstalled it. Now I click on one of the routes and it’s trying to install BaseCamp for an hour. WTH???
Brick
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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WOW! Pat must have been in a bad mood when he wrote the response to me. I waited, and see that a few others have similar questions. First, it seems like Pat is saying, if I don't like and cannot follow the routes provided, make my own and then hope that I get back to the resort before it is time to go home. Then as I look at it some more, maybe he is saying, if anyone doesn't like the routes, they should stay home.
Well, I have thought and looked and I will use the #22 route to Tom's to explain. Near Oakland, the map shows the route on 219, but that is not listed on the turn-by-turn directions.
I do see listed R221 several times, but not shown on any of the maps. I don't see any road names on the map for any of the route.
I have designed routes for our MS RRR for many years, and have had many compliments for the little extras added, such as town names when you get near them and such. There is not one town listed on this route. What if someone makes a wrong turn, there is no way to find your self back to the route, or even find your way back to the Resort. We don't want to end up somewhere in the middle of no-where listening to banjos playing.
On the attached page of this year's MS RRR route, you can see that I have also added a road name and the road number if it uses both.
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Carl I'm fairly certain Pat is not trying to tell you any of those things. He may simply be saying if the routes that are supplied don't work or are too hard to follow you can create your own.
I bought my first GPS primarily because I was having trouble following routes at events without them, since my vision didn't allow me to read map on tank bag while moving and finding some of the turns (those smaller roads that often don't have numbers) was becoming more difficult.
The simple fact is GPS routing with shared routes is not an exact science since it relies on many factors. I've had trouble with my share of GPS routes, usually because of my own short cuts (I don't often use basecamp or other software to load routes to my GPS).
As for how things are labeled, using names instead of numbers that the stupid GPS. Also many turn by turn directions become pointless in towns as 10-20 turns is all about following the same US or state highway thru town, which can usually be done by paying attention.
Since I often lead and am responsible for following routes I spend some time in my hotel room each night reviewing the route, looking at maps to try and make sure I have some general idea of where we're going and what routes we're following.
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I will just say again the fault is with garmins map product. They are not targeted at road travelers, just loo, at the name:City Nav! Norm and the wv route team have done a great job with the map product they have to work with, IMHO. Plus the help page has great info, including how to deal with getting off route.
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Carl….if you look at the routes listed for people without GPS, and spread out a WV State map next to one of them, I think you’ll be able to match it up pretty easily with the map.
The volunteers putting these routes together (some of whom aren’t even MSTA members!) we’re asked to prepare routes for GPS usage, because the vast majority of members do use dedicated GPS or phones to navigate with. They had to start from scratch with little or no prior knowledge of how we (as a club) are used to setting up routes for our events. We will try to help those that don’t use GPS as much as we can. But we would ask that if you need help with certain routes, please cut your request down to just a few of the routes that you plan to use.
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I know when I first started mapping routes, they were not perfect either. In fact, I did not want to make the routes. I finally made it my goal to have good routes. Or, as one rider told me 2 years ago on a route in Wisconsin, he did not know I had designed and mapped the route for that year's Ride. He was with a few other riders and they were commenting about the route when I walked by at the gas station and I asked if I could help. They said it was the best designed route they had been on for many years and loved the turn-by-turn directions.
All of them were shocked when I mentioned that I designed it as well as the T-by-T. They said they could look down at it every little while and had a good feeling where they were going.
That comment made me feel good.
I have tried many different programs, but have found Bing.com/maps as the best for making the directions. I then drive the route and verify the turns and roads as well as mileage. Then it is put into the written format like in the attachment. It is a lot of work, but it makes it so anyone can ride it without any problems, we hope.
Many times, I have driven the route several times, as I refine it, with a co-pilot taking notes.
The three routes that I have printed and thinking about riding at STAR, are: #10, 14, 22. Those are the only ones at this time. We may team up with some other friend riders that have GPS for more rides as we plan to be there from about Friday to Wed night. And, as several of us found out at STAR in Bristol, GPS is not always correct either and we had to refer to the maps to get back to the hotel. GPS sent us down a dead end road. Darn Tom-Tom is known for that.
I have looked at a W VA map. It is not an official W VA map, it is from AAA. It may not have all of the small roads, but when I compare it to the map for that route, it looks very similar. At least the AAA map shows Davis and Onego and others, which the route map does not. It always has all the road numbers listed, but no road names.
I think the STAR map should at least have the road names or number on the route.
A good suggestion, have a supply of official WV state maps on hand at Registration. At La Crosse, both WI and MN gave us a box and we returned the unused maps. We were lucky, the Welcome Centers were within a few miles.
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We have already contacted the states of West Virginia and Virginia for maps. If we get enough, there will be one of each in every registration packet.
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I started playing around with the routes, maps, gps, route site, etc. this morning and I have to agree with Carl somewhat. Just using route 10 as an example, the route instructions are hard to follow. Part of that is because of where waypoints may have been put into the routes.
For example on route 10…
8…turn right onto Wren st
9…turn right onto water street
10…turn left onto Clements St
11..turn right onto S Fork Road
Could all be simplified by saying…
When you get to Moorefield
Turn right on Old WV 55 (Winchester Ave)
Turn right on WV 7 (S Fork Road)
The routes sometimes take you on village back streets. My guess is that the software is set up to take the shortest distance.
Now….HOW did I figure this out?
On my computer I have loaded a GPX viewer and recorder. So when I click on the GPX designation for route 10, it comes up and shows me the complete route. When I focus in on the route, I can see the way it goes in detail, and read both the street names and route numbers.
I admit that this will take everyone a little time and effort to work out, and that some of these little roads don’t show well on the state maps. However, as I’ve stated before, it’s OK to bypass some of these little roads and just stay on the major state routes. Like this…
Come out of park and turn right/south onto 32. Got to Harmon and turn left onto 33. Got to Senaca Rocks and turn left onto 28. Go to Petersburg and take 220 to Moorefield. Turn right on 55, turn left on 29, turn left on 50 to Romney.
That’s the 90% of 1st half of route 10, except it leaves out some of the little roads that hardly show on state maps and would be hard to follow without a GPS.
But why not just break down and get a GPS? Even a cheap one designed for a car can work on many of these routes.
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I want everyone to know, that I was not complaining, but I want to make it better and easier for everyone, especially someone that might be new to the STAR so that they don't get disappointed and never come back.
I am also willing to be part of the solution and explain how I make routes and maps.
Does that mean that I am willing to put on a short seminar at STAR. Yes.
I am also willing to help someone on the phone for these routes if they would like to contact me.
As far as break down and get a GPS. I am on my 2nd Garmin for a car. The last that I bought is less than 2 years old.
But, Garmin does not recommend using a car version on a cycle with the vibration as well as the rain if it happens.
As much as I like it in a cage, using it many times per month, even on routes that I know, I just like riding without a GPS.
But, maybe in the future this old dog will change.
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Carl
I certainly appreciate your concern and your desire to make this STAR a great experience for everyone. I’m going to try and help too.
I’ve printed out all of the PDF versions of the road routes and will be going through them. I’ll try to come up with simple turn by turn instructions for them, using primarily the state route numbers. However, that might mean having to eliminate parts of them, so as to make them less confusing so someone not using a GPS. I’ll bring them along with me to STAR (along with a copy machine/printer that I was already bringing) and five out copies to the people that REALLY need them.
I’ll add this…..I used to attend TRISTAR without a GPS and every year I would get messed up on a route. Once I got a GPS and loaded routes into it, I found myself on great roads that I never even knew existed. I’d never go back to not having one again. Worth every penny.
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Pat I was in the same boat, recall having trouble following routes at a few events, Tri-STAR was one of them. I bought a cheap car GPS (Nuvi something) that I connected in a poor way initially, and over time got that setup better. But it was invaluable following routes at events, and then when traveling out west to new places it was great to have to find the hotels, gas, places to eat. Then I started doing my own routes in the GPS, often for after an event or the ride there and back. Over time I needed something better, and the screen was starting to develop glitches. I still use it some since the Zumo I have only has the one dock attached to the main touring bike.
Pre GPS I recall reviewing maps and turn by turn directions for the routes at events and just eliminating pieces I didn't think I could follow.
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Having a route sheet which includes both road names and numbers is certainly desirable, but I have yet to see any software package that includes both. I used to create a route, download the turn-by-turn instructions from the software into an Excel file, and then tweak the instructions to fit a format that I liked better and would also include other info...like both names and numbers. But doing that was mind-numbingly tedious and it took an immense amount of time.
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I’ve found that the older version of Microsoft Street and Trips shows both street names and route numbers in their turn by turn instructions. However, it also shows a lot of “extra” instructions, especially when state routes combine with each other for a period of time. So it’s important to read those instructions carefully and ignore the ones not needed.
I’m in the midst of going through the routes and coming up with S&T versions that I can use to give simple written instructions.
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We have been to only Springdale, Colorado Springs, La Crosse and Bristol for STARs. We did not have those problems at any of those locations. Maybe it would be good to ask the people that designed those routes what they used.
We rode two or three of the routes on our own at Springdale and were very easy to follow. On others we followed, but the map was accurate as we had it in the tank bag to read to see where we were going. I remember commenting as I looked at the map, and saying that across the Holler is a road that we will be on shortly.
The routes that I made for La Crosse, I didn't make all of them, were done with bing.com/maps and then typed out like in my previous attachment. I did not drive the routes to verify, but spent a lot of time analyzing them on the computer. More work, but well worth it.
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I’ve gotten through the first 4 routes now and here’s an observation….
It looks to me that the routes are relying on the use of small County Roads for much of their length, instead of using primarily State Routes.
I can’t say for sure what all of the others did in the past, but I do know that for the two STAR events held in Lexington, KY the routes were almost exclusively made up of State Routes.
Kentucky uses a number designation that works like this….the larger the road, the fewer the numbers. So for example, a route with 1-2 numbers would tend to be a more heavily driven road than one with 4 digits. (SR 32 v SR1054). The smallest of roads (many just 1 lane or 1 1/2 lanes wide) would generally have only a name. We didn’t use those roads except on a couple of the routes for a few miles.
In WV, it seems that the State Routes are all the 1-2 digit roads, and beyond that we have County Road numbers. (SR-7 v CR-7). I can’t say for sure, but I’m betting that the road signs for the county roads will either not have the County Road # on them or will only have it written very small, and will instead have the Road Name on them.
Only time will tell.
Probably a good idea to pick up a DeLome Gazetteer for West Virginia if you’re going to rely on maps and not GPS to follow the routes.
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Pat that is definitely out of the norm in my years of experience attending club events and following routes. Certainly going back to the pre GPS days it was all more main roads, and even after use of GPS was common most routes were still primarily state and US highways.
I would hope that these less major roads have been ridden to some extent to be sure of the road quality (ripped up pavement, gravel, etc) and that they are not of the famous "WV road" variety where its one lane of pavement down the middle, with a half lane of gravel on each side. (First time I encountered one the oncoming pickup thought they owned the paved portion and expected me to give up my half lane and ride in gravel. Kind of unnerving to say the least.)
I will definitely be doing some detailed review of these routes to see what they contain.
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I’ve finished almost all of the routes now and I’ve found something else of interest….
Is seems that the County Roads are repeated in each county. So you can be riding along on CR-1, cross the county line, and it suddenly becomes CR-6….AND in some cases, the NAME changes too……travel a little further and have to turn back onto a road designated CR-1, with a totally different name, but it’s CR-1 for a different county than the former CR-1.
Also…keep in mind that because of the location of the resort, roads going east can easily run into Virginia, and ones running north can run into Maryland. That can result in a State Route number change.
All this SOUNDS very confusing, but really it’s not when put into actual practice. MANY of the routes, especially those running south of the resort, really rely on State Routes for all, or mostly all, of their roads. A lot of the CR usage is in order to get from one state route to another, or to take you to a state park or other destination. If you don’t have a GPS, there are still many of the routes that you’ll be able to run pretty easily. Just spend some time prior to getting there looking at them with a state map besides you, and you’ll be able to figure them out pretty easily. There are only so many main roads running through the state and all of the routes use some of them.
One additional piece of advice…..when heading out into rural mountain country, don’t rely on their being lots of gas stations everywhere, there aren’t. Norm’s routes have gas stops written into them, but it’s never a bad idea to gas up whenever you have a chance.
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Thanks for the additional info Pat. That situation with county roads is the same in Ohio, each county has their own set of numbered roads. Most times I am using the county roads to link up my favorite pieces of state highways so I'm not often on them long enough to transition to a new county and see the number or name change. But they can be more difficult to follow visually (not labeled as well).
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wbgva_roadkill is THE man to ask about roads in W VA, and I think he has route files.
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Thanks Larry, I "might" have helped already with these routes. ;)
John