MSTA Forums
Main Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Outlaws Justice on March 16, 2017, 11:43:43 PM
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New Question.
Some time back I posted a thread here asking why people do not take training? One of the many things I learned from that thread that was several pages long, is that the type of riders who tend to hang out on motorcycle forums are the smaller percentage who are true motorcycle enthusiasts. This is also a smaller portion of the riding population who actually look for and have taken rider training at some time at some level.
So since it seems many here believe in and have taken some form of rider training, what encouraged you to do it?
Someone tell you about a great experience?
Was it because friends rode better?
Was it a close call while riding?
Was it a thirst for knowledge?
Was it to overcome some fear threshold?
Or maybe just to get faster!
Let me hear what or who got you to consider or take additional training, it might be also nice if you include what you took and how long it has been since you did it.
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I am not interested in becoming a "faster" rider. In order to do that all one has to do is twist the throttle a litter harder, right? That will make me go faster, right? But I took rider training in order to be better able to control the bike at ALL speeds, instead of just letting the speed and the bike control me. I don't want to have anymore "Oh S***!!!" moments, if I can help it. I took training so that when presented with an unexpected circumstance I wouldn't tense up and make it worse, but that I would smoothly and confidently be able to deal with the situation and make it better. I ENJOY riding more now because, like virtually any skill, the better you do it the less frustration there is and the more enjoyment there is. I've still got a loooong way to go, and I will never be at a level of some others. I'm OK with that. I don't have to be better than them, I just want to be better tomorrow than I am today. Rider training will help me to get there.
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I agree, I am not out to prove to someone else that I am better than they are, I am only out to improve myself and my chances to make it back home safely. In 2015 there was a 10% increase in rider fatalities nationally, that is a lot. With the latest numbers per miles driven/ridden they show that riding a motorcycle is 37 times more dangerous than driving a car. To put that in perspective, that cup of Coffee at Starbucks cost $3.00 yesterday, today it costs $111.00, that is 37 times more. so what can we as riders to to improve our chances of getting home in one piece. Remember you can do everything right and still be dead. Better skills can help you compensate for what the other person does. At the end of the day it does not matter if you were right if you are dead.
When the branches of the military required follow up training on your own motorcycle (Different branches required different levels of training) the military saw a reduction in fatalities ranging from 37% to 61%. Any reduction in the number of fatalities is an improvement.
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For me I see some really bad riding a lot. And wonder if the rider knows it was bad and how close to getting hurt he/she was. This encourages me to not do that through education. I'm not getting any younger and hear all the time how reflexes and response time slow as we age so perhaps I can stave that off a bit through training and practice.
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Over the last 25 years in our MSF Classes, I'm guilty of having stated more than once that with good practice, we could out-stop an ABS equipped bike. The explanations I'd heard were generally somewhat complicated and convoluted. But it made enough sense to me that I still believed it enough to repeat the claim. I'm not sure I could clearly explain it, but I believed it.
Our friends at FortNine have done a better-than-average video comparing what happens when you depend solely on ABS electronics vs using your well practiced skill set. I'm happy to say that that they are backing up the claims I've made for all of those many years. With good practice, you CAN often stop more quickly than you will by just trusting an ABS system. It won't happen without practice, and the electronics will save your behind on occasion when you aren't at your best, but with some practice you CAN be better.
Watch this video more than once and see what YOU think. Be ready to pause the video to read the captions and think about what they are saying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDbWZiaUeDY
I attended a civilian version of the Midwest Motorcycle Training School in Auburn Hillls, Michigan a few years ago. They cater primarily to training motor officers, and motor officers are some of the very best riders around...they know their stuff. But the instructors for this class got to a stopping exercise on day 3 of 4 when we were instructed to just slam on the brakes and let the electronics stop us. I specifically asked the lead instructor if our goal was to stop as quickly as possible without having the ABS kick in and his response was "Why would you do that? Just apply maximum brake pressure and let the electronics do what they were designed to do." The problem for me now and then was my belief that ABS is designed to keep you from locking up a tire (leading to a loss of control)...not necessarily to stop in the shortest distance you and the bike are capable of doing. That, along with another discussion about swerving where the head instructor refused to even try to explain the difference between pushing the bar vs pressing the bar (I specifically asked when he said I was doing one of them but he wanted the other) led me to leave part of the way through day 3 and accept "in my mind" that the training I was getting was not nearly worth what I had paid for the tuition to the class. I got 3 days of inadequate and half-ass training for 4 days tuition plus paid for 5 nights at a motel, meals, etc. Very disappointing.
Geoffrey Greene
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Well Geoffrey, this is almost like opening a oil thread. LOL ;^) I agree you CAN stop shorter with a non-abs bike but that is under optimum conditions and planning ahead to do so. ABS is designed to do it's thing under less than good conditions. What about a surprise?? How many times have we had a knee jerk reaction and screwed up our reaction to the situation? The science and dynamics is more than we'll discuss here but if you can prevent locking and tucking the front wheel, which IS GOING to make you fall down, asb is there to prevent that.
I understand your frustration with that class as it was taught without FULL explanation of the inner workings of the brakes, pros and cons. YM
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I don't keep my training up like I should, but I was surprised years ago when I took the basic MSF course and talked to other experienced riders about counter steering. Some claimed they didn't do it, and that it wasn't a key part of riding. One rider even got onto a bike in a riding position (semi tuck on sport bike) and I asked them to simulate a turn, and they talked about how they leaned and hung off the bike. Look at your arms I said, didn't you just push forward with your hand on the insde bar?
I think it is Keith Code or one of the others that has a bike that teaches this somehow, forget the priniciple. For me the MSF course demonstration was done with a large bicycle wheel that had pegs on the sides. Instructor spun the wheel and told a student to "turn left" and we asll saw the wheel move a bit to the left, then rotate back and dip in hard to the right.
If I had a bike with ABS I'd like rely on it, just like I do in the car. Maybe I could do better, with the proper conditions and practice.
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I've heard some say that countersteering only occurs at speeds above a particular threshold. I've even heard some MSF RiderCoaches say something to that effect, but you won't find that in any of MSF's written materials (one of our local guys used to say it only worked above 8 mph.). For me, I'm more of the opinion that unless you are traveling at a speed so slow that other actions may have a greater effect, countersteering is the only way to quickly change your direction. At normal highway speeds, shifting your body weight will alter your direction some, but not very accurately nor quickly. Shifting body weight seems to have more of an effect at slow speeds, but it's not very fast, not very accurate, and with little control. Even turning your head will have a small effect, but it's not effective.
People who say they don't countersteer must have a different definition of what it is, or they DO countersteer.
RE: ABS...
If you watch the above referenced video, you'll see that when the wheels reach a point when they are turning at different speeds (just before a wheel locks up...which may lead to a loss of control), the electronics activate some change to try to avoid that happening. It's a lot more about having consistent control than it is about stopping faster or slower.
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I disagree with the countersteering concept. To me we are not pushing the bar in the counter direction but pushing the bike DOWN in the direction it needs to lean. Don't get me wrong, I am doing what you all call contersteering I just think it is a wrong way to describe it. I absorbed Nick Iesnasch (sp?)cornering techniques and feel I learned to use them well after many track days and use them on the street. As for courses I've taken MSF, WERA track safety course required for race license, a racing course by a WERA racing friend at my local track and the Sport Touring track day school at Jennings GP sponsored by MSTA and GOG a few years back. I use to practice threshold breaking and used to be good at it. But now with three bikes with ABS that all work slightly different and getting old I am just relying more on the electronics.
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I can appreciate differences of opinion...thinking about stuff may lead me to a better overall understanding of how something works. Bring on the different thoughts.
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My rider training was different than most riders experienced. I grew up in NYC, in the borough of Queens, it was 1976 and there was no availability of any kind of training. I wanted to ride with no way of being trained. I came across an auto driving school who also gave motorcycle training. He had an interesting method. He had a motocross bike inside of his location on rollers. You first lesson was to learn how to get into first gear and back to neutral. Your second lesson was to ride up and down his back alley in first gear back to neutral. Only after you mastered that he would take you out on the street for practical riding. After a number of lessons I took my road test and passed. After I received my license I commuted to work in NYC. That gave me real skills very quickly.
This school went on to establishing an MSF program in NYC. A few years ago I saw them at a motorcycle show and they told me that they still had the bike on rollers and used it to train new riders.
That training gave me the skills I still use today.
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I have generally done some sort of rider training about every 10 years. The last time was this past spring. I attended Brett Tkacs Adventure Riding Camp. My general motivation is a lack of comfort with higher speeds on gravel and unimproved roads. I also picked up some good safety tips as well. In general I enjoy learning and discussing concepts about riding.
I have also completed the MSF Advanced Rider Training and BMW Adventure School in Greer, SC.
Rick B.
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I have generally done some sort of rider training about every 10 years. The last time was this past spring. I attended Brett Tkacs Adventure Riding Camp. My general motivation is a lack of comfort with higher speeds on gravel and unimproved roads. I also picked up some good safety tips as well. In general I enjoy learning and discussing concepts about riding.
I have also completed the MSF Advanced Rider Training and BMW Adventure School in Greer, SC.
Rick B.
Rick,
Did you feel Brett Tkacs weekend was worthwhile? His videos have always, to me, seemed a good practical approach to dealing with various situations. One of his courses would be on my short list of things to do from what I've seen.
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I would say it was a reasonable value and worthwhile. I definitely benefited. Having taken the BMW Adv class 10 years prior there was some overlap. Brett spent more time on bike set up and gave more explanation as to why you should do certain things. He has a background in adult education that came through in the explanations he gave. I enjoyed his explanations due to my engineering background. I took the class on my DR650 and may have benefited more by riding the GS.
The class consisted of a meet and greet on Thursday night. Friday was mostly riding around the "farm" doing braking and turning exercises with lots of instruction and explanation. Saturday was more riding but on trials around the ranch in more difficult situations. Sunday was an optional road ride on dirt and secondary roads.
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That all sounds reasonable. I see nothing to eliminate the possibility of attending on of his classes.
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This may sound odd, but the 1st motorcycle training I received was playing football (15 yrs total). Developing great vision and anticipation of the action during a play is a must if you hope to be any good, and those are necessary skills on a bike.
Why did I seek formal skills training? For safety/survival and riding skills. I define the two separately, though there is overlap:
Safety is all about surviving on the road, all the rules and tidbits we can all list out.
Riding skills are about how to get the bike through a curve and down the road in the quickest way. Knowing how a bike, and rider, behaves at speed makes for a safer ride on the street.
I took the MSF Adv course ~24 years after I got my bike license (1974). I was a sponge for all the safety and riding skill information I could get my hands on, so I didn't learn anything new in the course.
10 years later (1998) I took day one of Keith Code's CA Superbike School. That day I learned that with 34 years of riding, I didn't know how to corner a bike! It was a mind, and riding, altering experience. Many track day and street riding times later, working through the necessary reps to turn that new knowledge into unconscious competence, I was not only a faster rider, but a much safer rider. My recommendation to everyone is to take a performance riding course - not to go faster, but to ride safer.
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A little late to the party, but here's my thoughts.
From the get-go, as a kid, I was interested in bikes and going as fast as possible on them. I learned very quickly that the "school of hard knocks" REALLY hurt. I sought out more experienced riders, guys who were winning, and got as much help from the ones that would as I could.
When I transitioned to track, and eventually street, I learned that many of the dirt skills didn't translate like I thought. So, I did the same thing. And very shortly, the "elders" of the time were pointing me towards different track instructions being offered. I took the first one, and got hooked. I needed to know MORE! I needed to be better, faster, more of a weapon on the track than I already thought I was.
I also transitioned to street very early, getting my M class just 1 week after my regular license. I took what was offered from MSF in the mid-90's, and found my slow speed skills were very lacking. I passed, and did well, but I knew I needed more practice and more instruction. They were testing out a military rider course aimed towards sport bikes on Ft Bragg at the time (I was a dependent child of an active duty soldier). I took it. Then more track school. Then I started what would be my journey into "sport touring". Myself and some friends were making regular road trips with our bikes. At the time, I was on my then new CBR1100XX. This was the graduated step from my first actual street bike, a Katana 750. Let me tell you, it was more of a cliff than a step! My race bike was a GSXR600 at the time, and I was NOT ready for what that big Blackbird could do! However, as much as I thought I needed work, riding with friends who had done the basic course or "had someone teach them", I could see the difference right in front of me.
I survived 50k miles on the Blackbird, and loved it immensely. But, Suzuki was dropping their "new" bad boy, the 1999 Hayabusa. I HAD to have one! At 18, no less.... But before I would let myself get put on the order list, I shipped my tail off across the US to do some training at some of the schools in California. Luckily, dad had friends stationed over there. Now, before you ask, no, my parents didn't do much in motorcycling for me aside from that. My mom was very against it. I actually didn't live at home at the time, having moved out at 16. But, I did keep close to my dad, who secretly always had my back. He loved to ride, then met my mom.... I had a great paying gig for a family friend, thankfully. He also sponsored some of my track endeavors.
So, training done, Hayabusa delivered, and an opportunity to do something NUTS!! I picked the bike up on a Friday, wacked the 500 mile break in on it, and had it back at the dealer for the 500 mile service Saturday morning. Loaded to the HILT, btw. Me and the friend on my old Blackbird spent 2 months that summer riding all 48 states on these 2 missiles! 26k miles!
That trip was where I realized just how important all that training I took was, and how much more I really should get. So many situations were only avoided because I HAD that training, and some were close enough I felt like a little more would be beneficial. I needed more STREET training. Real world, save my bacon sorts of things.
I never stopped, aside from a brief hiatus in riding all together several years ago. I took advanced rider courses, street skills courses, you name it. I also learned that I needed to keep PRACTICING the skills, make the second nature. I found my young, indestructible self in group rides, and watching people have crashes going "how did you manage that?" This lead me to crash analyzation. All the skills in the world won't help if you don't know WHAT skill was missing to cause a crash.
Fast forward many years, and the "indestructible" cycle of life is a long way behind me. I've been a track instructor, and I'm currently an MSF instructor. I constantly seek improvement still. Last season, a fellow RC got me doing some of the police training drills. I thought I was pretty good, but those guys take it up a few notches!
There is always more to learn. As much training and seat time as I have, there is still more to learn. A LOT more. My next endeavor is to certify for the MSF ADV cert. I'm an on and off ADV rider already, but I'm far removed from my childhood self ripping dirt bikes through the woods and on tracks. There are so many people far better at it than I am, and I fully intend on absorbing as much of their knowledge as I can. At almost 43 years of age, with a hopefully long and adventurous riding career ahead of me, I hope to never stop learning.