MSTA Forums
Main Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: normkern on October 20, 2015, 04:01:25 pm
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Group Riding in MSTA
Let's have a wide-ranging discussion on how we do group riding in MSTA- let members discuss their philosophies, preferences and how they handle riding groups, especially at events. I'd like to see what the problems are and what we can do to make things better, both for regular members and newcomers. I've been working on ways to improve the riding experience for my personal riding group for the past two seasons and we have accomplished a lot. Over the course of this thread, I'll explain our style, rules and how everything evolved. What we came up with will certainly NOT please everyone. It will be presented to encourage others to express what works for them.
To kick things off, here's how I became interested in Sport-Touring Group Riding.
Background
When I began sport-touring in 2001, I had just bought a used Honda ST1100. I spent many days that spring, riding by myself, exploring its limits and figuring out how I wanted to ride. It didn't take long to figure out that I didn't want to ride by myself all the time. 2001 was also the year I made a new best friend, Tim Zimmer. Along with Allan Skinner, another recruit from Dayton Motorcycle club, we began doing a lot of riding together and discovered the Mail Pouch Fly-By and MSTA, which quickly became our home for sport-touring style riding. Tom Bartels and Daryl Cassada were early influences from the club, and I quickly picked up a crude GPS unit.
In a couple of years, Tim and I had better GPS units that we could load complex routes into and we started learning navigation inside and out. I liked the challenge of navigating, and wound up leading the rides. I have never been a road racer or ridden a track day, so never got in the habit of maximizing my speed on twisty roads. The thing that really turned me on was the fun of counter-steering and leaning in the corners. For me it was more fun to follow the contour of the road than straighten it out to go faster. Thanks to my younger days of riding endurance runs, I could quickly get into a zone riding the ST and carve corners for hours at a time.
One of the big changes when I started riding in MSTA events was wearing full gear. I've never liked being hot, so have always had a love-hate relationship with riding gear- love it when on the bike and moving at speed, but hate it in town and especially when stopped. That's why I want to suit up in the morning, jump on the bike & get moving. On hot days especially, it's uncomfortable to stop so I avoid it as much as possible. I want to do the ride, finish and get the gear off, so I hate delays. That's just one challenge.
A bigger challenge is limiting group size and composition to avoid the "herding cats" and "slowest common denominator" problems, which are the bane of most group riding, which I'll refer to as "Social Group Riding". In a way, all group riding is social, so we'll talk about that in the next post before we start discussing alternatives...
Comments welcome!
Norm Kern
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Hmmmmm......
Think I'm just going to wait and see how this goes before I express any thoughts.
:)
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Great idea for a discussion, Norm. Thanks for starting it.
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Good topic Norm.
My motorcycling interests have changed over the years. This includes the bikes I ride, how far I ride, how I ride and who I ride with.
We (the Boss and I) started riding over 20 years ago. We were thrilled about the idea of group riding and being members of a club.
Each weekend a group of 30 or more riders would meet and ride for 200 miles or more.
I was typically asked to be a "road captain," the guy that led the group. That was also fun...... for a while.
As road captain I was responsible for the route, the pace and stops along the way. However, I would often get complaints that we were going to slow or to fast, we didn't stop enough or we stopped to often. I could handle that but when I was blamed for the weather it quickly became old. I also discovered that often I had riders in my group that I had no idea of their riding skills. What was worse, riders would show up to join in on the ride because (for good reason) no one else would ride with them!
We liked the social aspects of the club but not those fleas that came with that dog.
In 2004, I purchased a Honda ST1300. I was surfing the web looking for information on sport touring bikes when I came across the Florida HSTA site. I contacted Bill Royal (then State Director) and was invited to join the group for a lunch ride. There were about 30 riders at my first lunch gathering. But what I noticed was riders were arriving in groups of 3 or 4 NOT in packs of 20. This I liked!
Today we ride with people that we know that have similar riding skills and I keep the group small at 4 - 5 riders. I could care in the least what kind (or brand) of bike they ride just as long as they keep the pace and are safe riders.
I guess this is what we like about the MSTA, it fits our group riding style.....AND there are lots of great folks! :) -JEP-
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Integrating slow, medium or fast riders into any group will always be a problem without easy solutions. I agree with JP about riding in small groups; conversely wonder about making our events more friendly to newbies.
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It's very tough to find people who share your personal riding style, Ive found. Large groups are simply dangerous, and for many reasons. 2 years ago I connected with a local on-line group that called themselves a "sport-touring" club. I met up with them for a ride and started to ask about their riding technique. There were cruisers and sportbikes and everything in between. The leader of this group repeatedly told us "Make sure you stay really close to the person in front of you so we don't lose anyone." I thought that a bit strange. There were 20+ riders and I asked if they would break into groups of faster and slower riders. "NO!, just keep close and close the gaps"! So on this ride, I had riders beside me, (which I hate) riders close on my tail, saw 3 different bikes lock up their rear tire while stopping for the person in front of them, and one slide out into the middle of an intersection, barely keeping the bike upright. And I was reprimanded for leaving too much gap in front of me! At lunch, I said I was taking my own way home. This is why I love the MSTA! The best group of riders, as a whole, I've ever ridden with, in over 300,000 miles!
Thanks for keeping up the high standards guys (and gals)!!!
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Just to throw my 2 cents worth in the conversation, the Michigan MSTA director has a nice written seminar about this very subject and it was the focus of a group meeting during the off season last year. It's probably worth a read and can be found on the michigan website at www.mstamichigan.com. Go to articles and scroll down to find it.
This group does a nice riders meeting before each days ride and helps people find like minded groups, then has re-grouping efferts on a daily basis during a multi-day ride. I personally like to ride in as many groups as possible to experience as many different riders as possible. It's not always perfect results but I enjoy leading and/or being within a group. Many groups I join rotate the leader throughout the day (voluntary only) to give evrybody a chance to lead and follow. It's good for everybody to get the feel of all positions and what the differences are.
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There are 14 pages at last count at http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.0.html#.VienqCtuMvw. The topic is titled (https://ridemsta.com/mstaforums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sport-touring.net%2Fforums%2FThemes%2Fanecdota%2Fimages%2Fpost%2Fxx.gif&hash=52d620ddd356771abb2f7f1bb058b2cb6a4e371a) (http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.msg1259491.html#msg1259491) I'm already seeing why sport tourers ride alone (http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.msg1259491.html#msg1259491)
It covers this topic ad nauseum.
The only reason I belong to MSTA is to ride a few events with a few long time friends. I had the best time in a very long time riding with one old companion at the FCR because we ride exactly alike, we make accomodations for each others likes and dislikes, and we can make route changes on the fly. IMO, if your Group is greater than about four riders, the logistics, riding styles, and personalities diminish from the primary goal of sport touring --- having fun riding a motorcyle.
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Great replies- Keep them coming!
Norm Kern
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I'm pretty much in the same camp as OldbutNotDead. I enjoy MSTA mostly for social reasons and have very little interest in accommodating new riders who ride significantly slower (or faster) than me or who need special attention. That said I am more than willing to wait on, assist and lead/guide my friends (who are invariably willing to do the same for me). I will add I am willing to assimilate new friends with similar interests and riding styles.
I've been riding a long time (57 years) - maybe too long to be understanding of those with a different philosophy. I guess I'm just a curmudgeon. I used to be a sport-tour rider doing long, high mileage days. Ya know, high mileage ST1100 - the whole thing. To be blunt it's been a while since I've been real interested in street riding beyond the paved connections to dirt roads. That's just not me anymore. I simply find hiway touring boring and often dangerous because of the speeds and general stupidity of many drivers.
MSTA is a great club that allows me to interact with good folks and still ride the stuff I like. I hope I'll be able to do that for a while.
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I made this flowchart (attached) to illustrate how the Central Ohio contingent handles a ride. When I am leading I will often wait for the ride to regroup more often than is illustrated here. We are pretty good at staying together, but we have been on rides with very slow people at the back and it has worked fine.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Very good Doug! That is how we do it here too. I ride with two different groups and there are MSTA members and non members I both groups. Additionally we all know the lunch destination. Plus in the Carolina Old Farts Sport Touring Association we are usually running with either Sena (if 4 or less) or GMRS radio's if more than 4. Obviously the radios make it so much easier to stay together. In the other group, The Knobbies, only 2 or 3 of us ever have radios. The Knobbies is a Sunday after breakfast ride. Someone picks a place for lunch and that is the destination. There is a "Touring" speed group and a faster group. This allows us to have a more manageable size group in the faster group.
Since I live in Western NC we have lots of elevation and many curves which is why I moved here. Like Norm said I love carving the curve and do not try to straighten the road. Usually I or Gary end up leading this second group.
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Nice flowchart Coach! I really don't know why it has to be more complicated than that! Ive seen groups use all sorts of hand signals and lane changes, flashing brake lights, etc... WTF?
I will say that one of my biggest riding fears is having someone trying to keep up with me that may be in over their heads and crashes. I've had it happen. That time with pretty fortunate results. Next time might not be so lucky. Even though you tell someone to "ride your own ride", usually their natural instinct will be to try to keep up.
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I've always thought that as a rider in a group, I am responsible only for the rider directly behind me....as far as making sure they see me turn. It then becomes their responsibility to make sure the rider behind them, see them turn. And so on. I think the flow chart does a good job of showing how this happens.
Keeping the group small, and keeping it a group with similar skills and pace, makes staying together easier and less stressful for all. It's been my experience thst riders in the far back of groups often feel the need to go much much faster at times, just to catch back up to the group at stops/turns. This is dangerous and stressful for all. This is especially a problem with large groups that take up much more road space as they spread out. AND it's especially a problem for riders that either don't know the route, or don't know the location of the destination. These are reasons to avoid large groups and to make sure those in the group do have a route sheet, or a GPS route, or at least a destination address.
I've stopped leading large "rides" and just set up lunch "destinations"......allowing people to group up as they wish, without myself feeling the pressure to herd cats and get them all somewhere at a certain time. It becomes their responsibility, not mine.
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Great stuff guys. Coach, I really liked your diagram, and Patmo I agree - keep the group small, and as long as the person behind you makes the turn, why should everyone have to stop to wait for the next guy. I began my riding years on the mountain roads of SoCal, and rode mostly with 2-3 good friends and 2 of my brothers. We all knew the roads, and where we were going (this was pre-GPS days) and it was usually just a day ride. I've seen one of my brothers crash, and they've both seen me crash. And those were due to not riding "your" ride. First and foremost, it is up to the rider to make sure they are safe and ride safely. I for one would much rather be lost, than crashed. YMMV.
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This is an excellent thread. I was rooming with Norm at FC, and he told about the situation. I understand his feelings and explanation, but Tosh also has a good point when he mentions that it would be nice not to make new members feel unwelcome. This is a subject that needs to be addressed not only in terms of why we do it, but how we can work around the problem to be more welcoming. The EC has made efforts with MAP and the Ambassador programs, but they've only been marginally successful. Unlike Norm and quite a few other members, my schedule doesn't allow me to ride 30to 40k a year, and attend almost every rally that comes along. With that said, I wouldn't mind leading a ride with some newbies one day during one of the rallies. It does help that I usually take extra days when going to the few rallies that I attend, so it isn't like I'm taking a chance of screwing up my only riding day on Saturday. Somehow we have to set up a system which allows us to have more information about the new member's riding style and preferences as pertains to stops, speed, etc. In order to coordinate things a little better, current members should be asked upon renewal to list the upcoming rallies they hope to attend, and if they would volunteer on a specific day during one of those rallies to lead a ride. They might state the pace that he or she intends to maintain. If you volunteer to lead, it should be your prerogative to decide how large your group will be. Communication is part of the problem, because the person or persons in charge of the rally frequently doesn't know who wants to join a group until the day is over, when it's to late to do anything about it.
I love to ride with certain friends as well, and, as it was at FC, it was just assumed we would ride together. We do allow others to join the group pretty freely, but we usually know them. When you usually ride with that certain group, I think it is good to ask them before allowing new folks to join in. If they'd rather not, then you have to be prepared to lead on your own. In the past in all kinds of activities, l've had more good experiences than bad. Learning about new people can sometimes be fun and rewarding. The problem lies with us older members and not the newbie. For the most part, they are anticipating a whole new world, with riding opportunities and other people of similar interests to eat with and chat with. If you joined many years ago, you probably either didn't experience the problem, or have forgotten about it by now. I remember that I did not feel welcomed at first, and, if I hadn't been the pushy SOB that I am, I'd probably have been long gone by now. How about some more suggestions about improving the situation. Syd :)
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There are 14 pages at last count at http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.0.html#.VienqCtuMvw (http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.0.html#.VienqCtuMvw). The topic is titled (https://ridemsta.com/mstaforums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sport-touring.net%2Fforums%2FThemes%2Fanecdota%2Fimages%2Fpost%2Fxx.gif&hash=52d620ddd356771abb2f7f1bb058b2cb6a4e371a) (http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.msg1259491.html#msg1259491) I'm already seeing why sport tourers ride alone (http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.msg1259491.html#msg1259491)
It covers this topic ad nauseum.
I read all 14 pages. Pretty good catalog of group vs solo riding pros & cons. OTOH, this thread is about Group Riding in MSTA, with the goal of researching and promoting ways to make it a better, more accessible experience for our members.
Norm Kern
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The Problem With Social Group Riding
The primary problem with Social Group riding is also it's main attraction. It's an activity that's intended to be as INCLUSIVE as possible. It's an open invitation to mix bike types and drastically different skill levels. It's considered impolite to turn people away, so group size almost always gets out of hand. Waiting for someone to show up for the ride, waiting at every turn for a slow rider, stopping every whipstich for a thousand reasons, playing gas games, etc, drives many of us crazy.
One of the things I love about MSTA is that in general we are on more similar types of bikes, almost everyone wears gear, and has far above average skill level. That homogeneity at least gives us a head start on the Group Riding problem, but there is still much that is needed to make it a seamless experience.
What About Riding Solo?
Many people expressed the preference for riding solo in the lengthy thread above. They say that by riding alone, they can do whatever they want with no conflicts whatsoever. That won't work for me because I want people to ride with, but this philosophy gave me an idea: IF I could find someone to ride with who liked to ride the same style & pace, liked to stop as often, had the same interests in things to see, etc, then both of us would pretty much get to do exactly what we wanted to do AND I'd have someone to do it with. That's what Tim Zimmer and I did, and over time, other like-minded people saw what we were doing and joined us. Over a period of years that evolved into what I call "Interest Group Riding."
Norm Kern
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"Interest Group Riding" defined
Interest Group Riding is putting together a small group of riders who want to ride in a very specific manner and format that all the group members share a common preference for. I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and state my personal Interest Group preferences as follows:
Interest Group Riding Goals:
1. Start at an agreed time
2. Ride an interesting route that provides a challenge
3. Ride a pace that is spirited yet sustainable
4. Maintain adequate spacing- Riders ride in a staggered formation, try to maintain visual contact with next rider, not ride close together.
5. Group Convergence 1- Allow flexibility of pace for individual riders. Faster riders near front of group, slower riders in rear.
6. Group Convergence 2- Leader goes quickly in corners, but does not maximize speed on straightaways, providing opportunity for those slower in corners to easily keep up.
7. Group Convergence 3- Collecting the group at stop signs, route turns and intersections. In cases where the roadway does not provide room to collect, the group reverts to individual riders waiting until the next rider catches up.
8.Passing slower traffic- Effort is made to avoid traffic, but there will be times when passing must be done quickly to maintain Group Convergence.
9. Stop somewhere in the morning for a brief restroom break
10. Stop somewhere, preferably nice, for approximately an hour for lunch, fuel and social time
11.Stop somewhere in the afternoon for a brief restroom break
12.Arrive back at the host hotel early enough to shower and relax before dinner
Interest Group Avoidances:
1.Traffic congestion
2. Police supervision
3. Frequent stops
4. Waiting in lines
5. Making other group members wait
6. Crashes
Participation Rules- Most of these rules are as much about courtesy as safety.
1. Be ready to ride at the agreed upon time.
2. No gas games 1- Show up at the start of the ride with a full tank of gas.
3. No gas games 2- Top off your tank at each gas stop so extra stops are unnecessary.
4. Every rider needs to navigate- have a GPS and use it. A GPS is not mandatory, but if you are not using a GPS loaded with the day's route, you need to ride in the middle of the riding group to minimize the chance of getting lost/separated from the group.
5. Riders must wear proper riding gear. ATGATT
6. Riders must ride a modern motorcycle in good mechanical condition, including tires in good condition.
7. Group members do NOT unilaterally invite outsiders to ride with the group. Ask the group leader privately and let them decide whether to invite a non-group person.
One more thought about Courtesy- Indiana has a safety slogan: "Hoosier hospitality is no accident!" I used to dismiss it as a typical smart-ass safety slogan like "Click it or ticket" but upon reflection it gave me a positive idea that applies to our riding group- We all have a safety-oriented obligation of courtesy to our fellow riders. Riding responsibly and not crashing is not only good for you, but good for all of us, because even a minor crash by anyone in the group casts a pall that dampens everyone's riding day.
I'm not presenting my rules as something for everyone- they are merely an example of what a set of rules can look like. Anyone who reads them comes away with a pretty clear idea of what our group's interests are. Some will undoubtedly argue that there are too many rules in this example. In reply, I would say that most of the rules are things most of us would do anyway.
Some of the Group Avoidances are the responsibility of the group leader, some are the responsibility of the riders.
Some will think the Participation Rules are picky or petty, but unfortunately they are necessary, based on past group experience when outsiders joined us.
Let the discussion begin...
Norm Kern
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I like it Norm.
One rule I would add is that if for any reason you need to split from the group you must let another rider in the group know. I've experienced riders that left and we didn't know what happened. I hate when someone does it.
I've ridden with lots of different people in my riding days. Out of all of them I'd say there is only about 3 or 4 that really match my riding style and stopping frequency for a multiple day trip, but for a one day ride my riding style is flexible enough that I can ride with just about any group or rider.
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Unfortunately, as many of us have "aged", the need for more frequent restroom breaks has somewhat increased for some. When leading a ride anymore I usually plan to stop around an hour after a meal. The use of intercoms and other modes of bike to bike communication has increased as the systems have become better, and more affordable. They certainly help in many ways, including allowing members to request needed breaks.
I'd also like to make the point that finding riders that not only like to ride the same pace and take the same kind of breaks is important, but so is finding riders that like to ride the same time of day. For example, I am a very early riser, even today when I don't have to get up early, I still do. I like to hit the road early and get back early. Others like to sleep in, start later, and return later. Some discussion on timing should certainly be a part of any pre-ride planning.
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There are 14 pages at last count at http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.0.html#.VienqCtuMvw (http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.0.html#.VienqCtuMvw). The topic is titled (https://ridemsta.com/mstaforums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sport-touring.net%2Fforums%2FThemes%2Fanecdota%2Fimages%2Fpost%2Fxx.gif&hash=52d620ddd356771abb2f7f1bb058b2cb6a4e371a) (http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.msg1259491.html#msg1259491) I'm already seeing why sport tourers ride alone (http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,54635.msg1259491.html#msg1259491)
It covers this topic ad nauseum.
I read all 14 pages. Pretty good catalog of group vs solo riding pros & cons. OTOH, this thread is about Group Riding in MSTA, with the goal of researching and promoting ways to make it a better, more accessible experience for our members.
Norm Kern
The reason I put that reference in was because STN and STO both have a much wider cross section of ST riders than MSTA. I fully understand your purpose. I do not see any real growth in MSTA and the opinions of MSTA core riders isn't going to change that. When I say core riders that isn't even a valid statement when you look at the number of hits on this site.
Rod
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You referene to STN and STO . . . .
What are these?
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Just to throw my 2 cents worth in the conversation, the Michigan MSTA director has a nice written seminar about this very subject and it was the focus of a group meeting during the off season last year. It's probably worth a read and can be found on the michigan website at www.mstamichigan.com (http://www.mstamichigan.com). Go to articles and scroll down to find it.
Finally got a chance to read this article. Lots of great stuff here!
Norm Kern
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The reason I put that reference in was because STN and STO both have a much wider cross section of ST riders than MSTA. I fully understand your purpose. I do not see any real growth in MSTA and the opinions of MSTA core riders isn't going to change that. When I say core riders that isn't even a valid statement when you look at the number of hits on this site.
Rod
Rod,
Enjoyed reading that link- thank you for posting it. MSTA needs to think about what it needs to do to grow (that's already being done by some), but it's a hard sell in the age of internet "clubs" that have no dues or obligations.
Some things I see about group riding in the club
1. There are more members who want to ride in a group than there are members who are willing or prepared to lead.
2. Newbies usually want to come to an event and ride with established members.
3. It's no one's job to find ride leaders or be one.
4. It's too hard for newbies to fit in and establish ties, especially at first.
How do we develop additional group leaders?
How do we improve availability of groups for newbies to ride with?
Norm Kern
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One of things I saw more of in the past than currently is a first night get together. Don't mean at a bar or restaurant but at the hotel or paddock area. Maybe a burger and hot dog thing but with some presenters. The presenters could describe some of the routes, good places to visit, etc AND have sign up sheets for group rides.
My observation of the direction of events is and has been for a long time is pre-ordained groups of riders launch off at dawn with the rest left to grab some ad hoc group formed at random. IMO, if you want the group rides to be more successful, that first night gathering needs to be more active in group ride formation.
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Sounds silly, but what about a free on the MSTA lunch for Members who will lead a ride, along with a "Ride Coach" hat, which they can choose to wear when "on duty". Each coach would normally sign up for one day. Ride coaches could volunteer when registering for an event, or at an event. Coaches would have individual sign up sheets displayed at registration, mostly for newbies, with riding style, break schedule, chosen route (if available), and other pertinent info. If you already have a couple of guys going with you, you can limit the number of additional riders you accept, or set a maximum. :D
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[...IMO, if you want the group rides to be more successful, that first night gathering needs to be more active in group ride formation...]
At our events, the rides are typically among many small groups of friends, usually less than 6 riders, who are similar in regards to speed, endurance, and range of their bikes. Injecting a newbie into this mix is difficult unless he/she has experience with someone in that group and even then, the adjustment could be difficult.
Many newbies come to an event with a friend who is already a member while only a tiny percentage of newbies come alone. It would be logical for the onus to be on the existing member to help his/her newbie friend. The newbie who is alone is a tough nut to crack.
When we had STAR at Lexington in 2005, Moose led a "New Member's Lunch Ride." More than half of the riders in that massive group were existing members who just wanted someone to lead them to the lunch spot! Having your own GPS with routes is a wonder thing!
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I think Touringman and Oldbutnotdead pretty much summed it up with their posts.
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It sounds like Norm is trying to ask us all to be more engaging with other members of the MSTA beyond our usual riding Buddies. With the average age of the organization not getting any younger we may become the FORMER MSTA if we don't encourage other riders to enjoy the sport and maybe learn a few things from the Masters. Events like STAR and other Larger Regional events could be the perfect place to Grow our organization. Or maybe you would prefer coaching a newbie at the local level. No one just "wakes up one morning" and is suddenly an expert on anything. Education and training are required if we are going to improve our riding skills and we have all received coaching from others to be the riders we are today.
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Wonder where the EC might be in this discussion? It would be nice to hear some of them weigh in on this. Cooperation will be needed from them in facilitating any plan. The implied message that I'm getting from Norm is that we need to do something about this situation, but he is firmly set in the very good ride plan he has developed. So that means that most of the responsibility for flexibility lies with everyone else? How many have developed similar groups and rules(or guidelines) that almost preclude the inclusion of new people? Sorry Norm, I have utmost respect for you, your knowledge, and your abilities, but if all of us follow the same prescription, we'll end up like that religious sect (help me with the name!) that refrained from sexual intercourse! In that instance, the sect was short lived. That's where we stand right now. Most of us are older(thus the problem), and we may correctly assume that we have a source of contemporaries that we can ride with as long as we'll be able to ride. What about the future of the MSTA, and new people who could learn to enjoy what we're doing for the rest of their lives? I enjoy meeting new people, and learning what we might share that enriches both our lives. I recently learned a neat little saying from my wife and her bible study. Those who are very obstinate, often become obsolete. Why do I care about those who come after, don't know, just made that way.
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I think one reason our membership is shrinking is that there are significant generational difference in attitudes about motorcycles. In my admittedly limited view of younger riders (<40 and even more so for <30) there appears to be little interest in travel or touring by motorcycle. To do so requires free time and financial resources both of which are more challenging for younger riders who often have family and job constraints.
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I believe an aging market is a problem in the entire motorcycle industry, Go to any major bike event and it is largely comprised of 50 to 60 year olds. In addition, when you are 25 years old it's difficult not only to have that $15-25K to plop down on a new toy but moreover have the 2-3 weeks a year to travel on it. I suspect there has been many a discussion in the Harley Davidson Board Room on this very topic.
As to the EC involvement in group riding, many of you may not be aware but this is being addressed.
At STAR this year in addition to the "Ambassador" program there were group ride sign up sheets available for everyone. This was pointed out at the new members meeting at the beginning of the event. I believe it was a complete success (EC folks chime in here?).
Good dialog here! Wish we had more threads like this. -JEP-
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Shakers!
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[I think one reason our membership is shrinking is that there are significant generational difference in attitudes about motorcycles...]
You can include cars into that group with motorcycles because there are a growing number of young people who feel there is no real need to own a car, and some are even choosing to move to locales where better public transportation is available
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Yes, this is a very good and needed discussion. The EC will continue the Ambassador program and Group ride sign-up sheets at STAR. I think both were a success, but there's room for improvement. We will monitor this thread and discuss implementing ideas that make sense for our organization.
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The implied message that I'm getting from Norm is that we need to do something about this situation, but he is firmly set in the very good ride plan he has developed. So that means that most of the responsibility for flexibility lies with everyone else? How many have developed similar groups and rules(or guidelines) that almost preclude the inclusion of new people?
Syd,
I've worked with about 8 outsiders/newbies this past season to include them in my group, ride with them individually outside a rally etc.
While I'm pleased with the way my group has turned out, my rules are not offered as a blueprint for others, but rather an example. Everyone needs to develop their own rules that suit them.
People who want to ride with others in a particular style should be encouraged to articulate what that style is and make it known, so those who share their interest can find them. The Ambassador program is a welcome step in that direction.
A tougher question is how to encourage more people to be willing to lead, and to help them develop their skills. Would anyone be interested in a riding weekend where they could go and learn these skills?
Another approach is to develop leadership depth within one's own group. That way the group still functions if the normal leader is absent at a particular event. Such a group can more easily split when there are too many riders on a particular day.
Norm Kern
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Very good points Norm, and I would be willing to take a weekend to work on those skills. I'm also guilty of preferring to follow, rather than lead, though I have ended up leading many times. I still have a lot to learn.
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Its interesting that most people prefer to follow vs lead. I've personally always enjoyed leading myself as I get to set the pace that I enjoy. Its not terribly difficult if you have a gps with the route loaded into it. Although my fault as a leader is that I typically don't stop often enough for other riders, if I have gas in the tank I don't normally have much reason to stop.
A lot of the people I ride with when I go to a rally may be people I only have the chance to ride with once a year and therefor I am not real interested in finding someone that's new to ride with. Most of us probably feel that way. I think we all could work on inviting new faces on a ride with us, but it is important to set some expectations up front with the rider prior to leaving. I've been there myself at my first Tristar, I showed up late Friday evening and didn't get the chance to meet anyone there that night. Saturday morning I stood in the parking lot and watched group after group leave not wanting to insert myself into a group without being invited. I finally found another new member standing alone and we went off together as I lead and had the route in my gps. We had a great ride, but I didn't necessarily feel welcomed by the "club". If I hadn't already meet and known so many great club members back in Indiana I probably wouldn't be a member today.
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The implied message that I'm getting from Norm is that we need to do something about this situation, but he is firmly set in the very good ride plan he has developed. So that means that most of the responsibility for flexibility lies with everyone else? How many have developed similar groups and rules(or guidelines) that almost preclude the inclusion of new people?
Syd,
I've worked with about 8 outsiders/newbies this past season to include them in my group, ride with them individually outside a rally etc.
While I'm pleased with the way my group has turned out, my rules are not offered as a blueprint for others, but rather an example. Everyone needs to develop their own rules that suit them.
People who want to ride with others in a particular style should be encouraged to articulate what that style is and make it known, so those who share their interest can find them. The Ambassador program is a welcome step in that direction.
A tougher question is how to encourage more people to be willing to lead, and to help them develop their skills. Would anyone be interested in a riding weekend where they could go and learn these skills?
Another approach is to develop leadership depth within one's own group. That way the group still functions if the normal leader is absent at a particular event. Such a group can more easily split when there are too many riders on a particular day.
Norm Kern
I recently attended a managerial conference/discussion where they discussed management styles. We were being told that we, the old style managers, needed to adapt to the young guys. I would tell you exactly what I thought of that point of view but I would be banned from the forum due to "language" usage. Did you ever think that maybe we should keep the social ties alive until people who didn't appreciate them were no longer replenishing the herd??? I DO NOT go to the events for the social aspects. My wife tells me my social skills are limited anyway. I go to do one thing -- RIDE! I just happen to have a couple friends in MSTA that feel like I do. MSTA is just a vehicle for me to ride with those friends. I have no problems with putting up a board on Friday night saying - Tom, Dick, Harry and I are riding route #3 tomorrow. We run at 10 over speed limit and pass on double yellow lines. We stop for breaks every X hours. We plan to eat at ------ around noon. Wheels will be turning and burning at 8 am. If you want to ride with us, come see me in room 123. Have your bike fueled and ready to go. There could be other less abrasive posts for other groups.
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Yes, this is a very good and needed discussion. The EC will continue the Ambassador program and Group ride sign-up sheets at STAR. I think both were a success, but there's room for improvement. We will monitor this thread and discuss implementing ideas that make sense for our organization.
I'd like to see those forms downloaded onto this site, and made available as a template for use at all the different events we hold.
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I have no problems with putting up a board on Friday night saying ......... We run at 10 over speed limit and pass on double yellow lines.
I understand this philosophy or method of riding, and I know many that do it that way. However, I would urge caution about posting it that way, someday some lawyer is going to love you for doing it and an insurer (event or personal) will dislike you in an equal or greater proportion.
Might be best to keep it verbal. ;)
You reference to STN and STO . . . .
What are these?
STN=Sport Touring . NET http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php (http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php)
STO=Sport Touring . ORG http://www.sport-touring.org/ (http://www.sport-touring.org/)
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The logical implication of your post is ride with people you know or ride alone. I just amended my sign to say "Tom, Dick, Harry and I are leaving at 9 am." Then we leave at 8 am to avoid legal entanglements.
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The signup sheets do basically what the sign says...
Place/Time to meet/leave
Route planned to take
Type of riding.....casual, stop and smell the roses, sport
And they limit the group size
While at STAR there is a need for more than 1 person/leader to be involved in this, at the regional events I doubt there would be a need for more than 1, possibly 2, people to help lead this.
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Pat,
The guys who used to have this down to a science were the RAT guys. They used to have events called RAID's. Most were organized, a few were gaggles of confusion too. Having two guys was kind of the norm, one on lead and the other a sweep rider because of the large disparity of rider experience levels. When they had a major RAID going in a place like Emporium or St.Mary's, PA there were groups running all over central PA. Some on Sprints, some on classics, some fast movers, some leaf peepers. Individual RAT organizations would sponsor group rides all the time. As time passed so has the RAT's. A few years back the FJRiders would have a group ride EVERY weekend usually around the Cherohala, Deals Gap, TWO areas. No more. You do see large gagles of HD's but I'm still not convinced they are motorcycle riders. BMW clubs put on some large group rides too, but you can fall asleep riding with them.
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Norm, this is not on topic, but I believe part of this conversation touched on expanding membership. Also believe group ride size of two or three to be a good size.
Let my MSTA membership expire a few years ago. Rode in a group a few years ago that Norm led at Sparta and later that year at the Big Lynn Event. Roomed with Syd at the Big Lynn Event. Both events have very good memories for me.
Now that my Wife & I are both retired, we ride mostly two-up on a Vstrom. Bought her two bikes for her to learn about riding on and off pavement. We enjoy camping around the nation with a travel trailer, eventually plan to to transport bikes around the nation with a toy hauler and ride where we camp. During our last 5 week trip last summer we visited 12 states and Canada.
Attracting younger/additional riders was mentioned earlier in this thread. During our travels around the lower 48 have seen (younger) groups Sport/DS meeting at campgrounds for rides, either camping or staying in the campground's cabins. ADV, BMW, and Cruiser groups also meet at campgrounds.
From the outside looking in, would it possible to include MSTA folks staying at a local campground in MSTA event planning? There are nice campgrounds public & private around the nation with nice restrooms, showers, cabins, and laundry facilities in the middle of fantastic roads.
First time I've ever been on a ride with car, really enjoyed the ride & fellowship that day, at the Big Lynn NC event:
(https://ridemsta.com/mstaforums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi657.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu299%2Fvstromklr%2F2012%2FIMG_0364-1.jpg&hash=93c6d6a7f3aae4da8a3787da8e38b0d0ee23e372) (http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2012/IMG_0364-1.jpg.html)
(https://ridemsta.com/mstaforums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi657.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu299%2Fvstromklr%2F2012%2FIMG_0356.jpg&hash=bd4de4e01d9d96e8a38d34cfb185f88d0e058443) (http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2012/IMG_0356.jpg.html)
Sparta NC event:
(https://ridemsta.com/mstaforums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi657.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu299%2Fvstromklr%2F2012%2FSANY0164.jpg&hash=6ed92d10f7708c281b90b714ff61f71ab28f994a) (http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2012/SANY0164.jpg.html)
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This does take this thread off subject, but.......
I think that trying to incorporate camping availability into our events whenever possible, is a good idea and may do something to address the cost issues that some people (both old and young) have.
......I admit that this has nothing to do with " group riding " however. :)
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Back on topic I hope :) , Believe the best size group to be 2 to 3 riders.
Guess this is the flight instructor side coming out, try to talk to new riders about right hand gravel, reason it occurs, where to ride when gravel is expected, use of brakes including trail braking and reasons, and how to reel the bike back in if the rear steps out in a curve. Riding your own ride and the leader waiting at the next stop sign. Like to talk about oncoming traffic on our side of the road in curves, being prepared. Some how ended up at the rear of a group one day, but able to give advance turn instructions to the leader via GMRS radio.
Last time I rode with a group while leading, stopped at a stop sign checking traffic, another rider ran into & damaged the rear of my Ninja because he didn't expect me to come to a full stop.
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I'm still catching up and trying to offer my own perspective. I joined the NE Ohio group of HSTA folks about 15 years ago and started doing day rides with them all over Ohio. Then I started going to rallies, I was still a relative newb to riding and was glad to be welcomed and get some advice and guidance from others. Flash forward 5+ years and some of our older members ride less, or are simply not around. Those who used to plan and lead rides are looking for help so I stepped in. I really enjoyed it and wondered (still do) why these much more experienced guys want me to lead them. Maybe its my map/road knowledge or my less hectic pace that keeps us in check (its a public road after all not a racetrack). It certainly isn't my riding skills, though I am getting better.
Flash forward another 5 years or so and it now seems like there is no weekend riding unless I plan something. When we go to an event if people want to group ride they find me and ask "where you going tomorrow." I don't mind the leading, and actually enjoy certain parts of it. But it just seems that too few people (even ones who've been riding for 30-40 years) have an interest in leading. I've asked about that before and don't get much in the way of an answer. Maybe they think I'm a control freak and now that I'm leading don't want to give it up. (They should have never given me this power.)
When I attend a rally I've always gone with at least one other local member. We ride together, if there are 4-6 or more we all ride together, with more we'll usually have multiple groups, sometimes doing the same ride. If there are only 2-3-4 of us occassionally (less than 5%) we'll join some other group and ride with them. We've also occassionally welcomed some other rider to join us. But for the vast majority of the time we are our group, and we ride that way. We don't really have any set rules, we just know what works. Sometimes we have a larger group, and linger at stops and BS more. We don't see each other often so that's fine, and we're not trying to get back by 3PM either (of course we left at 8-9 not 5-6).
Yes I know that doesn't help to get others to come along and join us, but it is what we do and what I suspect most members do. You may ride with people from other areas, but generally its your primary riding group at events.
I'm not sure how we change that or that you can change that. You aren't suddenly going to find others willing to lead rides for strangers if they don't lead rides with their friends or local riders. And those already leading are not going to want to add to their group, or leave their group to ride with others.
I think part of the problem (may have said this before) is people think that they come to an event and there is organized group riding, there isn't really. And I'm not sure how well it would work or if it is something that we really should be pushing for. I think the answer lies more in the local groups, but understand some members don't have a local group, they're the 2 new members from Rhode Island and nobody else is there (example).
Both Jims made good points about the generational gap, younger riders not having the time and money to travel. There's also a different attitude in wearing gear, being safe, not acting like a hooligan, etc. Most of that stuff won't sit well with an MSTA group, take off doing a wheelie from a stop and I'll pull over and ask you to leave. And Tosh is right about even cars, don't have kids but my 18 year old Nephew has no car and no desire to drive, have heard form co-workers with one or more kid that is the same.
One thing I've told my local riders, if we rode 15 years ago (when I was a newb) like we did today (faster, poor group riding etiquette, etc.) I'm not sure I would have stuck around. (I was mid 30s then, single had the money and a passion for riding, but scared silly about the potential dangers.)
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Thank you for your thoughtful post, Steve. Lots of things to think about.
Norm Kern
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Excellent discussion you've gotten started here Norm.
I very much liked your post defining Interest Group Riding. I think with almost any group, including those that have ridden together in the past, that a little pre-ride discussion should be had about #8 (passing slower traffic) in the goals. Most will not hesitate to ride over the speed limit or make group rolling stops to avoid being excessively strung out after every stop sign, but passing on double yellow stripes and making multiple vehicle passes at once should perhaps be noted by the leader before the start of the ride unless all in the group ride together frequently. I have frequently exceeded the speed limit and have occasionally made rolling stops with a group or even alone if the stop location had hazards to my short legs stability (gravel and slope). However, I really hate passing on double yellow unless it is clear and obvious that the driver/rider of the vehicle being passed desires me to do so. Being motorcycle riders we forget how difficult driving is for some auto drivers even without the leaning. If you watch enough you'll see some sticking their tongue out the corner of their mouths for a simple little turn, very reminiscent of small children trying in vain to color within the lines. These types are usually at the front or middle of a slow pack of cars and they are so focused on the skills needed to turn left into their driveway that they will not even think to check their left mirror (or use their turn signal) to see if anyone is passing them when they decide it's time to turn left. Then there are those drivers that pull out of their private roads or driveways intending to go right that only look to the left when they pull out, never even looking to the right to see if someone is passing in their lane until after they are well out into the road. Yes pass quickly when able, but don't get the "must stay with the group" mentality that you feel pressure to pass large groups of cars or try to pass in questionable areas. Sometimes it's just best to fall back from the group so you'll be able to ride with them again some other day. Regardless of these remarks about #8, that whole post (http://ridemsta.com/mstaforums/general-discussion/group-riding-in-msta/msg7084/#msg7084) seemed to me to be well thought out and spot on for group riding. (https://ridemsta.com/mstaforums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Forig13.deviantart.net%2F9e4d%2Ff%2F2013%2F307%2F7%2F1%2Fthumbs_up_by_weapons_expert_cool-d6sx4o7.gif&hash=6cfdfbffc80f7d08e5831cfa58c0704005ed76d4)
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Farty Marty,
Thanks for your comments, friendship and support. The Michigan Squadron group riding document linked earlier in this thread has some great ideas about passing and what to do if one or more of the group gets stopped by a LEO. I'm going to include some of those ideas in my personal group rules for next season.
Hope we can ride together at some events in 2016!
Norm Kern
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FartyMarty,
One thing I've tried to make clear with all people I ride with (since I do a lot of leading) is "I will pass on the double yellow, I will pass in corners and I will pass at times when it is only safe for me." As the leader if I never make an attempt to pass nobody will.
If I know the road (where the passing zones are) or can see them on my GPS (the straights ahead) I'll start getting ready and may even go before that hoping others in the group will then follow WHEN IT IS SAFE.
I also try to avoid a lot of that waving people to continue passing behind me. First it very hard to tell if the lead rider is waving "come on" or making a sign to "get back, pull in". It also iisn't too safe and gives them the impression I'm maknig the decision for them. I've had a few riders show me a technique where the lead rider stays in the oncoming lane while it is safe, something that works really well on long flat sections of road.
One last thing on passing, I've found that when I get behind slower traffic in the twisties, the only time to pass some cars is in corners or at insane high speeds on straights. Because when the corners tighten up they slow down, and when it gets straight they blast off. I do try to avoid making passes too close to cars, especiall when you move over in front of them. If they think you're being reckless and cutting them off they may call the law, or worse yet decide to run you off the road (have experienced it and seen the videos).
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FartyMarty,
One thing I've tried to make clear with all people I ride with (since I do a lot of leading) is "I will pass on the double yellow, I will pass in corners and I will pass at times when it is only safe for me." As the leader if I never make an attempt to pass nobody will.
Steve,
One of the HUGE benefits our group had this season was that most of us have Sena 20S BT units running group intercom. The lead person becomes the "eyes" for oncoming traffic, hazards etc. up ahead after they pass, making it much safer for the rest to get around the slow-moving traffic. The tail rider also confirms to the leader that everyone got around.
The BT communication makes it easy for anyone to tell the group they need to stop, drop out etc. Well worth the investment!
Norm Kern