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Author Topic: Fall Colors 2015  (Read 24246 times)

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Offline RIDEMYST

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2015, 03:19:55 PM »
Good dialogue here guys!


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Offline normkern

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2015, 08:18:57 AM »
Very well put, Norm.  Do you mind if I copy this and post it up on the Ky-MSTA FBook site?

Pat,

You're welcome to share my comments on FB. I've been thinking about writing a feature article for STAReview on this subject. The only thing that's held me back is the thought that some may decry these ideas as exclusive rather than inclusive.

I already have an interest group document to explain the philosophy and rules for my riding group. It was developed last winter and our group followed it closely all season. Everyone had a good time and there were no mishaps. If anyone is interested, let me know and I will email it to you.

Norm Kern

Offline normkern

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2015, 08:37:53 AM »
It's been my experience that people that are "new" to an area are much more inclined to look for a "led" ride.  People more familiar with the area, because of prior experience, are more willing to either go out on their own or become the leader.  Expereience leading a group usually leads to more comfort doing it, but the catch is that it can only happen by doing. 

Before you can lead, you have to be able to navigate. Here's my personal riding group rule:
4.      "Every rider needs to navigate- have a GPS and use it. A GPS is not mandatory, but if you are not using a GPS loaded with the day's route, you need to ride in the middle of the riding group to minimize the chance of getting lost/separated from the group."

I encourage everyone to have a GPS with the route loaded and use it. That way if they get separated from the group they are not lost. I encourage them to follow the route on their GPS- double check me and learn navigation. Then they can ride independently if they want to do a different route, or LEAD THEIR OWN GROUP.

I also encourage group members to have a Sena 20s BT communicator and participate in group intercom so we can discuss the route as we ride. Gentlemen, THIS is how new group leaders are developed.

Norm Kern
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 08:56:26 AM by normkern »

Offline normkern

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2015, 08:47:42 AM »
At STAR we asked people to volunteer to lead groups of a size with which they were comfortable. These rides were broken down by levels of "enthusiasm" so that even if you didn't have a riding group, you could probably find a small-to-large group with which to ride in a flower sniffing-to-hard charging manner. It worked pretty well. I expect we'll be doing that again with some tweaks.
Like clubs in general, we are a social group. If you don't have riding buddies, most still don't want to ride alone. I feel like it's more of a feeling of being included than needing to be led. If people found their way to an event, they obviously know how to find their way from one place to another. My guess is that it's the desire to be part of something that leads a person to ask about led rides.

We DO need people to lead all kinds of groups. There ought to be an opportunity at sign-in to declare if you are willing to lead, state your general pace and rules, and space availability for additional riders.

If you want someone to ride with, get a GPS, learn how to use it, and offer to lead. It will take some time, but you will wind up with plenty of people to ride with. Figure out your preferred style and ride format and be up front about what you want. People with similar interests will come on board. Boom! You have Interest Group riding.

Norm Kern
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 08:49:59 AM by normkern »

Online Patmo

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2015, 10:36:37 AM »
Norm...

.while I agree with you that the leader must be able to navigate, I do have to disagree with you about "needing" a GPS to do so......even though I do have one now, and am making "friends" with it, LOL.  The ability to read a map has helped me navigate thousands of miles over the years without needing or using a GPS.  I realize that the GPS is the wave of the future, but a basic knowledge of how to read a map is still a basic need if one hopes to develop and use routes.

.....it is very difficult to balance the need to bring new members into the group, and make them feel welcome and comfortable, and still keep current members feeling safe and comfortable when riding in a group.  I think that the signup sheets and MSTA Ambassador program that was used at STAR was popular and well received.  I hope to see it in use in the future, not only at STAR events, but also at regional events. 
not all that wander are lost

Offline normkern

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2015, 11:59:30 AM »
Norm...

.while I agree with you that the leader must be able to navigate, I do have to disagree with you about "needing" a GPS to do so......even though I do have one now, and am making "friends" with it, LOL.  The ability to read a map has helped me navigate thousands of miles over the years without needing or using a GPS.  I realize that the GPS is the wave of the future, but a basic knowledge of how to read a map is still a basic need if one hopes to develop and use routes.

Leading a ride involves extra distractions and responsibilities.  There's the distraction of making sure other riders are collected at turns, making sure everyone in the group gets around slower traffic etc. On the responsibility side, errors in navigation require everyone to turn around when a road dead ends or turns into a dual-sport route. The penalty for navigation errors is magnified when there are more riders in the group. I want to enjoy the ride even though I am leading. The GPS with route info and voice prompts when a turn is coming up is a big plus, just as the BT intercom gives me additional eyes and ears to know when to slow down or wait.

Bottom line- A GPS with the route loaded makes leading a ride more enjoyable and less stressful for me.

Norm Kern

Offline DirtFlier

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2015, 01:41:38 PM »
A GPS with the days' route also helps those who get separated in a new & strange area.  With a GPS and the route, there is no need to panic - just follow the purple line on the screen!   

When I'm at an event, I usually put the hotel in as one of my "Favorites" so if during the day, I feel like heading back to the barn, it's simple. 

Offline brider

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2015, 05:14:14 PM »
As someome that spends a lot of time lost I just go with plan b.  If you never know where you are going you will always make good time getting there.  I live by this and yet there are fools that follow me.
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Offline wardie

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2015, 05:42:16 PM »
Okay since my comment seemed to have started this whole ride thing I'll state my thoughts with no malice or intent towards anyone. I appreciate Norms comments , and can understand about selected riders in a group. I was a little put off because no one asked me during any of the conversation that night about my skill set. For all any of you know I could be a Valentino Rossi or a Squid. For many years I crossed this country riding with only two other guys and seldom if any rode with others because we like to curve and twist the wrist, many don't keep up and I didn't want to hold hands so to speak.. So everything Norm said was understandable and I would agree. Personally I don't know any of you (except Steve)  and have no idea if you can keep up with me if needed... but my buddy ( a new MSTA member) wanted to try group riding so as unaccustomed as I am to asking to be a part of a group ride I went to you and asked. The reason I asked you Norm was because someone was kind enough to point you out as a ride leader and to speak to you.

My only concern that night was to make sure my buddy and a new MSTA member would enjoy himself at FCR. If to him riding in a group to a cool destination was a positive experience then he would want to do more of this rally thing. I had hoped to latch on with your group Norm but due to the reasons you stated the group ride wasn't possible.

I do hope that on some of these events there is a way for new or newer members to gain some experience by tagging along on some group rides where it is possible.

Thank you gentlemen for all weighing in , much appreciated everyone's comments. Larry aka Wardie


Wardie

Offline Ohiomsta

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2015, 06:28:39 PM »
As someome that spends a lot of time lost I just go with plan b.  If you never know where you are going you will always make good time getting there.  I live by this and yet there are fools that follow me.

Yep I'm one of the fools that follow you. We seem to always get there, always find some great roads and seem to make good time. We do it with only 2 rules, wait at the next turn and don't run into each other. Works for us!
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Offline normkern

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2015, 06:31:36 AM »
Okay since my comment seemed to have started this whole ride thing I'll state my thoughts with no malice or intent towards anyone. I appreciate Norms comments , and can understand about selected riders in a group. I was a little put off because no one asked me during any of the conversation that night about my skill set. ...

 Larry aka Wardie

Wardie,

FWIW, that evening, I wasn't concerned about your skill set or whether your bike could "keep up." (Someone else brought that up.) My first thought was about a line of riders getting longer with two newcomers. Some of the people in my group ride with me because they don't want to ride in a large group and they know I'm careful about that. They would be asking me why I took on two more riders.

At the same time, I was looking at the situation from your point of view. You're bringing someone new to an MSTA event to show them how much fun it is and bring them on board. Then you get snubbed. I hated every moment of that, but was stuck in the middle.

How would you feel if you were regularly put in a public position where you're expected to take on strangers and newcomers, then have to look like a dick to them when you have to decline.

I got screwed big time a couple of years ago when I had a nice group of 4 other riders at a rally. Then another friend crashed the party with two newbies in tow who were completely unprepared. He doesn't navigate so he can't take the new guys on his own and I get stuck with all 3 of them. That was only the beginning of a long horror story that led me to make a rule:

If you bring someone new to a rally, be prepared to ride with them and be prepared to lead.

Just another reason for my perspective that everyone needs to learn to navigate and needs to be able to lead the ride.

Best wishes,

Norm Kern

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2015, 08:39:09 AM »
I agree that having a GPS, and knowing how to use it, makes leading a ride much easier.  But, depending on it can also cause problems and/or lead to opportunities to ride new roads....:).  A lot of thst depends on how well its programmed and how adept one is at using it.  I speak from experience on both ends of thst spectrum....having used a GPS at TriStar and finally being able to ride the Indisn Valley route without missing any turns, and having had some problems with following routes a few other times at other rallies.  However, I blame most of thst on my own inexperience and lack of GPS "savvy".  But it's all good.....

"When you don't care where you're going.....any road will get you there."




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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2015, 09:08:26 AM »
a rule:

If you bring someone new to a rally, be prepared to ride with them and be prepared to lead.

Just another reason for my perspective that everyone needs to learn to navigate and needs to be able to lead the ride.



I think this is a good rule.....and FWIW, keep in mind it doesn't say you WILL have to lead, it only says to be PREPARED.  There is only so much we can do as a "club"  to make new people feel welcome.  The MSTA Ambassador program, started at the last STAR, is the newest program to be put into effect.  But all of the program's we have tried do rely on current members volunteering to take new members under their wing.  Most of the time this works out really well and everyone is happy, but not always.  But, this program has the advantage of the leader being s volunteer and knowing that they might have to adjust their own riding style to accomidate someone else, and being willing to do so beforehand.  The ride sheets used at STAR, which were set up to accomidate different riding "styles" and keep the group sizes small, are a template thst could be used at all the rallies, as needed.  But it takes volunteers to do this.  I encourage anyone thst would feel comfortable doing this to step up and volunteer at least once.  Most of the rallies we have would only need one person, for one day, to have this work. 
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Offline dpippin

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2015, 09:11:54 AM »
Norm...

.while I agree with you that the leader must be able to navigate, I do have to disagree with you about "needing" a GPS to do so......even though I do have one now, and am making "friends" with it, LOL.  The ability to read a map has helped me navigate thousands of miles over the years without needing or using a GPS.  I realize that the GPS is the wave of the future, but a basic knowledge of how to read a map is still a basic need if one hopes to develop and use routes.
 

Pat
In order to create GPS routes you have to be able to read and use maps, whether they are on paper or on a computer screen.

When GPS routes are created by the organizers then offered to event participants, its important that participants review the routes prior to the event so they'll know where they are going.
Your GPS just shows your a view of a small portion of the route. You need to have a knowledge of the whole route and a general idea where it goes
I think it would be very confusing to just follow that line on the GPS and not have any idea where you are and where your going.

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Offline wardie

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Re: Fall Colors 2015
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2015, 09:53:42 AM »
Norm now that it has been explained I certainly  understand the situation you were put in. I did lead the ride on Saturday and several times through the 200 mile jaunt Nate led. Nate is a skilled rider just quiet. Nate is a computer programmer and easily downloaded the maps into his gps. I just used my gps to locate where we were and where we needed to go. I always carry maps in case my modern technology (Garmin) should fail I need to know how to get home probably being an old fart and an IBA member I never forget a map of the area.

I'm glad to see that their is a Ambassador/volunteer program and if I'm at an MSTA Rally and asked I certainly would volunteer to lead a ride, but I'd have a riders meeting before hand go over the general rules and each's responsibilities probably much like you do with your guys.

Nate has gone on a couple of BMW Rallys (were crashed them with Hondas ) and I've had him lead several times so I could judge his skill set  . I think because he has ridden with me a few times he wanted to experience "group" riding. Honestly I never asked why I sure thought we were fine but it was a request and I invited him so I too was put into a position I'm not all together comfortable with and that is asking to join a group. Last year at Fly By I knew there were going to be some guys who could carve and one of them I knew and tagged along last year and had a blast .

Nate had a good time albeit the rain and is interested in doing more MSTA events. I appreciate this forum and airing out situations and ideas. Thanks to all.



« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 10:11:13 AM by wardie »
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