Testing the 20S and 30K

[R1200GS]

I've been following comments primarily to do with the Sena 30K but a lot of left over stuff from the 20S.  In my opinion, a whole lot of stuff has been stated arising from observations and far too many of these observations were not based on comparing apples to apples.  Let's face it, the more features and widget has, the more complexity comes into the picture.  I do not own a 30K and hope I don't have to buy one.  Why because if my 20S does what I want it to, I'm too cheap to buy another unit - any unit 30K or whatever.   The following is some comments I have on testing both the 20s and 30k.


First - the 20s.   If you are going to do bike to bike group communications, then you must have three riders in the test, four would be better.  All units for the basic test should be on the same software version.  All users should be configured exactly the same.  I would recommend that all have the same GPS (I prefer a Zumo but I don't rate this as critical) and the same cell phone (I don't rate this as critical either but if something goes wrong GPS or phone may be a place to start looking).  Have a test plan.  Decide what you want to test and in what order.  Don't start the bike to bike portion of the test until all pairing is checked and tested prior to moving.  If ANYONE is not functional, don't start the test until they are.


Second - the 30K.  I don't have one but this is similar to the 20s.  I'm sure the 30K owners can add to this.  You probably could test the mesh with two or three riders but IMO four would be much, much better.  If you plan to test compatibility with BT/20s functions, I would recommend separate 20s riders.  You might get away with one 20s to test the functionality of the 30S but I would recommend three 20s riders.  Why?  The 30K has its own BT functionality but it would be nice to compare those results with a clean 20s setup.  Lots of bikes and radios aye?  Well, do you want reliable answers or a whole bunch of speculation. 


Last comment and one I have yet to look into.  On paper, BT is almost totally point to point whether on a 20s or 30K.  From what I can see of the Mesh implementation it can use nodes on the mesh like repeaters.  That's super cool if it works.


Hope this is of some use.

[normkern]

Rod,

Agree with your methodology, but assembling the group and the equipment for 4 or more people and checking the firmware etc. is nearly impossible to do with an ad hoc group, at least for me. Is there anyone on here who could do this? Most likely it would be Don Moe/Jim Park in FL- they are the only people in MSTA I know who have ridden with 4 or more 30K and 20S users. How about it, guys?

OTOH, why should all this testing even be necessary? BT intercoms should be like appliances- you buy them, plug them in, use them, and they work. They have matured nearly to that point providing you JUST want to listen to music, JUST use your phone or JUST have intercom with yourself and one or two other people. 

You should be able to follow the instructions in the user manual and configure a system that works. Period. Unfortunately, the more things you want to do, and especially the more things you want to do simultaneously, the more difficult it gets. Suddenly there are many ways to configure this stuff that don't work and only a few (if any) that do. Throw in the limitations and complexities of the hardware, BT medium itself and add some firmware bugs. Now you have an unstable system that is extremely difficult to test and evaluate.

In addition we have quirks. For users who can't figure them out, they look like failures. For example, for the first year or two my 20S had to be powered up before the A2DP audio dongle I use with it, otherwise it wouldn't connect. After one of the firmware updates, the order flipped- now the dongle has to be turned on first. With good software design, it wouldn't make any difference which one was turned on first. BTW, am not ragging on the 20S- it's far better than anything that preceded it. All the other brands of BT intercoms have quirks too.

BTW, Jeff Dolence and I are getting our 30K units replaced, as we cannot duplicate the success with mesh intercom and other audio sources that Richard Battles and Jim Park are claiming. We'll see what happens...

Norm Kern

[R1200GS]

LMAO, Norm I have problems getting two or three together. LOL
What is worse is that even when I get a few guys together, they usually don't have the discipline to do what I said above.


I have made another decision.  I will never buy another SENA ever again.  I'll just use my 20s until it totally dies.  Why?  On my last reply from the SENA help desk they said to load firmware version 1.6.3.  Sorry but it would NOT load after a bunch of tries.  I called the help desk and they went through it with me.  It would come up with an error "Error, can not connect to server."  The SENA answer was your unit is three years old and it just won't accept the older firmware.  I wish I had a recording on what causes the pop corn.  They absolutely know about the problem but they said it was the environment that BT works in that causes the issue.  RIGHT!!!!

[DirtFlier]

["...Unfortunately, the more things you want to do, and especially the more things you want to do simultaneously, the more difficult it gets...Norm Kern]

The perfect example is the "infotainment screen" on a modern car!      On my drive home yesterday I stopped playing a music CD and wanted to listen to FM.  It took me at least 10-minutes to get it back on FM radio, scrolling through several screens with multiple options on each screen.  Small wonder the infotainment function is THE major gripe on any new car!   

[RIDEMYST]

As Norm said I have used both the 20 & 30 units as a group intercom, the group size ranging from 2 to 8 riders.
That said, the 20S works fine when the group is limited to 2 riders, after that they become difficult to use. I’ve found on the 20’s the more multi audio tasks that you use them for (GPS, cell, MP3) the more contrary they become in a group intercom mode. The most annoying problem is the “popcorn” and machine gun noise that is ever present in larger groups (3 or  more). Also pairing the 20S is extremely difficult to get right. However, if you only ride by yourself or with only one other rider or passenger I see no reason to upgrade from a 20 to a 30 unit.

As to using the mesh mode on the 30K it is much easier for all riders to join the group and so far there is no problems with background noise UNLESS a member of the group has a 20S paired into the group. I might add that we noticed more issues having the 20S in the group as that rider would be difficult to hear and about every 20 minutes they would get dropped from the group.
We are just now starting to use the private mesh mode and it seems to be an improvement with the sound quality and range but it’s still to soon to tell if there are bugs as we have limited use to date.
As to using the button sequence per Tosh’s experience, I don’t see those sort of issues ever going away simply because the Sena’s are small for obvious reasons and the few buttons must serve multiple functions. If you don’t use those features on a regular basis (speaking for myself) you just aren’t going to remember the correct sequencing without referencing to the owners manual. I keep the OM in my cell phone file for reference.
Yes they have their bugs and yes I think Sena may have introduced the 30K into the market a little to soon but I still feel it’s the best thing out there right now.
I recall my CB radio days when I would shell out $400-500 for one unit plus cords and headset gear and then pull the fairings off the bike to do an install.....no thank you!
My 2-cents. -JEP-


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[R1200GS]

Jim,

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There are boat loads of people who have described the pop corn issue on this forum, AdvRider, reviews on Revzilla, Amazon, etc, etc.  The methodology I initially stated says you need to have four units to do a test on the 20s is based on almost every case the 20s pairs and sets up an intercom connection that works fine but exhibits noise at 3 or more.  Sena will tell you that at two users you are using the HD intercom but at three you go back to the standard intercom.  I have two cases open with Sena Help Desk.  The first came back telling me to restore firmware 1.6.3 over my latest and greatest 1.7.7.  Problem is that my unit gives a Cannot Connect to Server error.  What server???  I started the second case was to get the old firmware to load.  When they could not get it to load they said my unit was too old.  This was my response to them.

Ticket #213524: Sena 20S Group Intercom returned an answer that I needed to replace firmware 1.7.7 with 1.6.3.  We got absolutely nowhere at accomplishing that.  Michelle insisted the noise issue on the 20s was an interference.  I AM an EXPERT on interference.  I was in the Electronic Warfare section of NSA and was in charge of solving interference issues across DOD.  This issue is not interference.  Everything points to a problem with the firmware which SENA seems to want to deny.  The fact is that going back to an older version off the firmware HAS produced a solution to the problem, BUT neither I nor I assisted by help desk staff has not been able to get my unit back to that version.  That being said, keeping up with latest version of firmware as recommended by Sena in numerous locations has caused my unit to NOT PERFORM as stated in all advertising of the Sena 20s.

I WILL NOT be buying ANYTHING from Sena again.  Back to the experimental method I listed above.  If you follow the method outlined above using the number of units I list, you WILL get results that are valid, accurate and dependable.  If you don't, what you will get is random results.  But as Norm commented, getting four people who know what they are doing with the right equipment seems to be really, really hard to exceed practical limits.

Rod

[R1200GS]

I finally got version 1.6.3 of the 20s firmware loaded.  It took four or five support techs in both chat windows and on the phone.  They had me repeat the same procedure three or four times for each tech.  Total time roughly four or five hours.  Finally I had to reinstall the Device Manager, then do both a hardware and software reset, manually load the firmware file and move it to the right path for the Device Manager to find it.  Still don't know if this is going to help or not with the noise thing. 

[normkern]

Sena 30K update.

After reading reports that other 30K users were not experiencing some of the problems we were having, Jeff Dolence and I returned our units (they were from the very first production batch) and just received new ones. We are back in testing mode this coming weekend.

Will report on our experience with them.

Norm Kern

[RIDEMYST]

Looking forward to reading your results. -JEP-


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[R1200GS]

No matter what happens between now and the Fly By there is going to be an entire week where we can set aside one day for a real good dependable test.  With a little luck I will get a 30K and we should be able to get four 30K riders.  I know of several groups doing 30K tests as we speak.  Call me conceited or a know it all wanabe but if you don't set up an apples to apples test your data will have holes in it.  Besides Marietta and surrounding areas will be a great place for a test.